Albin 25 Fuel supply problem

[skipperl]

Hello Boaters., I am having trouble with fuel supply to engine. I have run out of fuel after using only 8 1/2 gallons. The 2nd time, I ran out, when I refilled, engine would run and die. It seemed to starve for fuel and die, when I hit rough conditions. I have removed the gauge from the tank previously. Cleaned out some gunk, but not all, from the tank. Filters had only 60 hours on them. I also replaced fuel lift filter with an 80 micron filter. This filter replaced the original universal XBP 25 filter. Original filter, which was only 10 microns.

I am going to remove tank gauge/access port, remove the fuel and clean the tank. And change filters when finished. Any insights or recommendations would be appreciated. I am guessing lift filter might be too fine, and clogging. Also, perhaps, fuel pick up in tank is somehow hung up.

I have owned this boat a couple of years, and have put 150 hours on it.

Thank you , skipperl

[WillieC]

During my winter rebuild, I removed the tank and heard a clunk in it. Baffle had broken loose. It caused no problems, but I wanted it out and clean the tank at the same time. We had no fuel issues, but there was substantial crud in the tank. I installed an access port and would recommend the same for you. I was able to clean the tank simply by wiping with rags until spotless. A little compressed air to loosen the last bits in the corners and wipe some more.
Then it is off to all the other things you are doing. Sounds like you have a Universal engine?
Maybe part of your pick up tube has rotted off, though mine looked like new. Originally the tanks were 25 gallons, so running out at 8.5 is not even in the realm. I need to check that 25 gallon number on my boat. That info is straight out of the A25 Handbook.
I have two filters before the lift pump, which also has a screen in it on the original Volvo Penta install. Hopefully crud has not made its way into the injection system. Keep us posted.

[DesertAlbin736]

One of the great features of the A25 is the ease with which the fuel tank can be accessed or removed for cleaning, service, repairs, or replacement. Just pull that floorboard & remove fittings & hold down straps.

Apparently one of the differences between the early full displacement boats (aka Mk1) like ours and later DeLuxe semi-displacement (aka Mk2) boats like Willie C is fuel tank capacity. Which makes sense with the increase made in engine HP. This table from the "Albin 25 History" page on the Albineers of BC site gives the numbers.

http://www.albinbc.com/home/albin-25-history

The early boats (pre 1974) had 20 gallon tanks, (75 litres @ 3.78541 lt/gal) vs 25 gallons (95 liters) for Mk 2/DeLuxe boats. So a bit depends on which model you have. Note that the bottom half of the tank is sloped to fit the hull shape, so fuel gauges can be a bit deceiving. We try not to let our 20 gallon tank go down by more than 8 or 9 gallons max before refueling, which for us is 100 to 115 NM range. I've not done anything with the tank on our 1971 boat since first taking ownership in March, 2014 other than routine filter changes & running it often and keeping it filled with fresh fuel with treatment additive in the tank, plus storing in our bone dry desert climate (bone dry as in <10% humidity), and so far (knock on skull) have not had any trouble in accumulating 380 hours of running time over the last 3 1/2 years.

I would imagine the steps you're taking should do the trick, unless there's something else going on with the engine. That said, I'd check those dirty filters for evidence of slime, which might indicate some issues with diesel eating bacteria.

[kerrye]

I put a day tank (5 gallons?) in my Albin 25 to the right of the helm station between the hull and the liner. I can run the engine off either tank and can fill the day tank directly from a pump or divert the return line from the main tank to the day tank and fill it that way.

[Beta Don]

Plugged fuel filters are a sure sign your tank needs cleaning and replacing a 10 micron primary filter with an 80 micron (I honestly didn't know they even made fuel filters that coarse - An engine oil filter is usually finer than that and for sure you want your fuel cleaner than your oil) isn't the answer to get up and running again - Your next plugging problem probably won't be as easy to fix, as you'll likely be taking parts off the engine

Yanmar engines come from the factory with a 2 micron filter on the engine and they recommend a 10 micron primary filter. That combination ensures that the Yanmar 2 micron filter will last a long time and those usually cost more than the primary filter elements

Some guys prefer to use 30 micron primaries and change both the primary and the secondary at the same time. I've never tried that. I've only plugged up a 10 micron once and that took almost 250 hours of running. I've never had to replace the 2 micron on the engine

IMO (what little I know) you don't want any 80 micron size pieces of crud making it to your engine. It may be true that you'll never plug up the 80 micron filter, but you're going to have major problems downstream using a filter that coarse

I would clean the tank, get back to a 10 micron and replace the secondary engine filter too - Hopefully that one is a 2 to 5 micron filter

Don

[Sprig1]

Hi if changing filters doesn't work check to make sure there are no collapsed fuel lines. When they get old that can happen. Happened to me on a diesel truck once. Good luck

[hetek]

My initial thought would be to inspect the pickup tube in the tank. If there was a hole in it half way up it would suck air and give the impression of running out of fuel. Just a thought.

I agree about the 80 micron being too course. I think I have 80 micron filters in my windows to keep the bugs out at night.

[skipperl]

I want to thank everyone for their advice and observations.
So, here is what I found.
I pulled the fuel gauge off. I found that the lower part of the gauge had reddish varnish crud on it. I hand pumped out 13+ gallons of fuel, picking fuel up as I as I could, in tank. Fuel was murky, then bottom gallon was very cruddy. I then pulled tank, which was relatively easy. I have rinsed tank with diesel numerous times. I will do so until clean. The hoses seem to be in good condition. I will blow out hoses when I change the filters. The tank measures out at a bit over 19 gallons, will filler hose full, I could see 20. The tank is 18 1/2 deep. The pick up tube was in outboard side fitting in tank. There is an inboard fitting, where the tank is deeper. The tube is only 5 inches long, that makes 12 1/2 gallons available, in a steady, level world.
So here are some questions:
How do I make pick up tube longer? How far off bottom for the tube? Is there a better cleaning process than rinsing the tank with diesel? Anything else?
Thanks again, happy 4th.
skipperl

[WillieC]

Skipperl,

My tank pickup is on the deep side, starboard aft of tank. It stops maybe an inch off the bottom. Your tank condition sounds a little worse than mine was, but I still installed an 8" access panel that yields about a 6" diameter handhole. Then cleaning is a cinch.
Another member suggested throwing a mild cleaner in the tank and then driving around town for a couple days with the tank in the back of your pick up, then properly disposing of the residue, rinse, dry and go. He said it was cleaner than the pros do, nothing against the pros. I was able to hand wipe mine, once I installed the access panel.
Call around and find a decent stainless outfit that can help you with the tube. Sounds like you have a port in the correct location. The top attachment is a little funky, welded, straight tapped metric pipe thread. Fortunately I got mine to quit weeping with some judiciously applied aviation goop.

My tank outside measurements IIRC are 39" long times the area of the hull shaped trapezoid with 6" short side, 10" long side by 18" abeam. Divided by 231 cu. in./gallon came out to about 24.3 gallons. The Official Brohall Handbook says 25 USG. Close enough.

Careful with your full level. Remember the vent outlet is below fill outlet and will dump fuel overboard, so I hear! Truly I haven't done this yet! While you are at it, do make sure your vent is clear. Mine was salt encrusted in the tiny screen at the thru hull. Not venting much at all. That will cause untold grief as well. Ask Beta Don.

And exercise your gauge mechanism with it out of the tank and watch your gauge to see that it is working properly, as much as it can with a hull shaped tank. There are new-fangled fancy-dan sensors and gauges and you could meter it with a flow thang, but at 1/2 gallon per hour, eh... I carry a five gallon jug with me, sometimes with fuel in it and sometimes not. Burning 20 gallons takes a while.

Do keep us posted. Now off to the boat!

[Beta Don]

What you have isn't that uncommon. When the crud is allowed to build up in the bottom of the tank, many times it rots off the bottom end of the pick-up tube - In aluminum tanks, many times it rots away the tank too

If your tube is attached to a threaded elbow where you can unscrew the elbow and remove the tube from the tank, it won't be that hard to replace the tube. I think you'll want to leave the new one 3/4 to 1 inch off the bottom of the tank

Don

[kerrye]

One of the reasons I like the day tank idea is that it keeps you on the water and running when encountering situations like this.

[Beta Don]

A day tank is an excellent idea, if you have the room. You can buy a cheap ($10) fuel pump, a big filter (like a Parker/Racor 500 - Elements for it are cheap) and you can constantly pump fuel from your main tank, through the big filter equipped with a 10 micron element, into the day tank and let the day tank overflow back into the main tank. This scrubs your fuel and ensures that everything in the day tank is pristine, no matter the condition of the main tank. Should you eventually plug up the big filter, you'll still have a full day tank to run with. With this system the only filter you'll ever need to change will be the Racor 10 micron and they are only about $10. Change that once per year and you'll almost never experience fuel problems

If any fuel lines on your boat are older than 10 or 15 years, I would do a wholesale change of them all - A collapsed fuel line can shut you down even when you have perfect fuel and clean filters

Don

[DesertAlbin736]

"Careful with your full level. Remember the vent outlet is below fill outlet and will dump fuel overboard, so I hear! "

Ahem to that! Our first time out in the San Juans was a 7 day Jeanneau 40 sailboat bareboat charter out of Bellingham, WA, shared with two other couples back in 2011. One does a fair amount of motoring in the San Juans with the light winds prevalent that time of year, and we were told by the charter people that, a) don't rely too much on the fuel gauge, and b) expect about a 1 GPH fuel burn rate on the 55 HP Yanmar that boat was equipped with. Well, long story short we kept track of the 22 hours we put on the engine, and of course the deal was we had to refuel the boat at our expense before we turned it back in at the end of the charter. So guess who got to handle the refueling? Of course at the fuel dock I gingerly pumped the fuel slowly, listening to the tone of the gurgle and watching the gallons rack up, but expecting to pump in at least 15 or 20 gallons. But the fill up only took 11 gallons, since we hadn't been running the engine at full RPM. Well, the vent was on the side of the boat, just like WillieC said and just like ours is. Lucky for us the dock attendent had pads handy and spotted and caught the overflow before it had a chance to spill any into the water, but it sure scared the crap out of me! Lesson learned! Ever since then I've religiously kept a fuel log for our boat, recording engine hours and amounts of fuel added each time, so we have a good idea how much it'll take to fill the tank. Of course since we trailer all the time we can fill up at regular gas stations on land unless we're doing extended cruises, and spilling a few drops at a gas station is nothing compared to even tiny spills on the water.

[skipperl]

Update:

I had the pick up tube replaced with an 8" s.s. tube, soldered to old bronze fitting. This sends up 3/4 of an inch from the bottom.

I spent a lot of time cleaning the tank. I finally plugged holes in the top of tank, filled it with one gallon of diesel, turned tank upside down, let it soak, shook, drained, repeated many times until clean.

I then removed the filters, all were dirty. I blew clean diesel through the lines, and installed new filters. 1st, a racor ten micron, 2nd, an 80 micron fuel lift filter, 3rd, a 10 micron fuel filter on block. Why an 80 micron filter in between two 10 micron filters? Maybe it has something to do with the re-manufacturer.

Onward, I put two gallons of fuel in the tank, bled air from the lines. By the way, lift pump only works with start button depressed, and glow plug heating, so I jumped the pump to the battery without using the start/preheat. With lines bled, engine started right up nicely.

My hull number is 1129. I have an older hull, with smaller fuel tank, 19 gallons. I filled the tank with one gallon at a time, with the engine running. I photographed fuel gauge, each time. The gauge seems to be fairly accurate. I then tested the level of fuel with new dipstick. The bottom of the 90 degree tank filler tube, is two inches below the top of the tank. This helps a little when refilling. However, it only indicates top two inches in the tank.

I keep a log of fuel, engine hours, rpm, and distance traveled. I have also added a spare fuel jug.

Thank you all for your help.

[WillieC]

Clean fuel is a worry that is good to have taken care of. Then stay on top of it with filter replacements, good fuel from clean supplies, etc, etc. From our recent trip I can see why one has to be vigilant. Nothing ever goes wrong on a glassy smooth sea on a sunny summer day. When it starts going south, all the little things you meant to take care of show up at the same time. And tie everything down and secure all the loose stuff in the cabin because when it starts rocking and launching coffee cups across the cabin when the anchor pops loose and the dinghy starts sliding off the roof, you need to be at the helm or on your knees in the galley.

Nice job on the fuel documentation! Safe travels.