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Complicated battery switches

Engines, Electric, Plumbing, etc.

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Nancy
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Complicated battery switches

Post by Nancy »

Last week, I posed some questions in a very old thread posting.php?mode=quote&f=7&p=31279 - and have received no replies. Maybe no one has any answers, but I'm going to try a new thread in case new posts get read more. I'd like to understand how our battery switches work.

I think that old thread has some clues:
Mariner wrote: Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:07 pm It's important to understand that Albin grossly overbuilt their electrical handling systems, and, as a result, had to resort to some unconventional switching methods.

For example, in our boat, there were two main battery banks when it left the factory (a third was added later, but that is beside the point). Rather than the typical 1-ALL-2-OFF switch, feeding two batteries into a single load that serves both the engine and house, they used two such switches, side by side. This allows the Engine and House batteries, to service the Engine and House loads independently with no connection between the two. But it ALSO allows you to interconnect the two so that you can charge the house battery bank from the engine. The connectors for "2" on the switches just have a wire running between them (from one switch to the other). That way, by selecting "ALL" on both switches, you are combining both banks and both loads into one big system. But they didn't label ANY of this, nor did they provide a user's manual. So, unless you're the original owner who went through a detailed orientation with the dealer on how it works, or you've spent some serious time crawling around and tracing wires, you'd never understand any of it.

Since our boat has several different users, only some of which are interested in crawling around in the bilge, I started looking at alternatives to make it simpler to use. There are some charging relays that could be employed, but due to the over-building of the electrical system, the versions necessary to match the capacity of the rest of the system are extremely expensive (4 digits). Instead, I opted to do some custom labeling for the switches, and create a couple laminated instruction sheets that are attached to the switch panel, making it fairly simple to know how the switches are supposed to be set in any given situation. Now, remembering to make those switch changes as your situation changes....well that is another challenge.
We have three batteries on our 35CB. There are two 8D's under the dinette seat. The shelf they sit on is marked Engine below one of them and House below the other. The third battery is a Group 27 or 31 for the generator and is located near the generator beneath the cockpit sole. None of these batteries are wired in parallel.

Here are the battery switches:
battery switches-04.05.22-768.jpg
They are just as Mariner describes: 1, 2, Both, Off. How did Albin intend these switches to be used? I understand Off, I think...except I don't know if the battery charger charges the batteries with the switch turned to Off. Some boats do; some don't.

The backs of the switches are interesting. I can really only see the top one (engine) well, but the next one down (generator) appears to be wired similarly:
battery switches 08.10.22-2040.jpg
Position 1 has 1 cable connected.
Position 2 has 2 cables and one small gauge wire connected.
Position Both has one cable connected.

I'm guessing that position 1 draws only from the associated battery.

Position 2 is beyond me. No clue.

Does Both parallel everything through the switch? What if you turn Engine to Both and House to 1? What happens then? What if you turn all three to Both? My probability skills are rusty, so I don't remember how many possible combinations there might be for these three switches and three positions. Even if it's only nine, that's mind-boggling.

How does 1, 2, Both make any sense when there are three batteries?? Seems like you'd need 1, 2, 3, *All* because "Both" isn't grammatically correct for anything other than a quantity of two.

You see my dilemma. Obviously we need to test a million combinations because even though the system may have been configured with some kind of logic from the factory, there's no guarantee that someone hasn't changed it. But it would be nice to understand what the original concept was.
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Nancy
2005 Albin 35CB
Yanmar 6LYA-STP 370
Valentine

Former boats
1995 Albin 28TE, Cummins 6BTA5.9 250, 2012-2022
1978 Trojan F32, 1998-2012
1983 Grady White 241 Weekender, 1988-1997
1980 Wellcraft 192 Classic, 1983-1987
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by Norseman »

Can't comment much on the switches, but I would be looking for a
combiner (isolator). It will let the other banks charge from one source
when the voltage exceeds a certain value (say 13.5 v) but will isolate
when one of the banks has a draw to protect the other banks from
being drawn down. My 28TE has a manual combiner button on the
dash. (Handy when using the bow thruster with main engine at idle: Push
the button for a 30 second boost from the other bank)
Also the rotary switches was replaced by previous owner to 2 simple
ON-OFF red rotary switches, one for each bank.
The above simplified Albin's electrical layout, and works great.
If your system is original Albin, then the Owner's Manual should show what you have and I suspect the generator switch should be ON-OFF, unless it is also wired into one of the 8Ds.
With a meter and 2 people you can start to turn the switches and measure voltage to see if the BOTH function does anything at all.
Is is a single or twin engine boat?
2001 28TE, 6LP-STE, 1,337 hrs, 19X18 four-blade wheel.
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RobS
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by RobS »

Got a pic of your three batteries and the battery charger? Is it a 3-bank charger with dedicated feeds to each 8D and the Gen battery? Check for lighter gauge wires at each battery that could be the battery charger feeds direct from the charger, not through the selector switches.

Would be nice to be able see the rear of all three switches clearly. Wow, that is tight quarters, you can’t even get in there to check the snugness of the nuts...

As to your comment “Position Both has one cable connected”. See attached, that is not an input switch position, that is the load (the device that is taking the power from the inputs on the switch ie, engine, gen house)

Looking at the backside of that engine switch: You only have two batteries, so the two top left and right posts are the two different 8D’s and the center lower stud is the load (the engine). The same should be for the bottom house switch with the load being the house panel and the two different inputs being each 8D.

As to multiple cables on an input posts (such as that upper left post on the engine switch) – don’t let that confuse you, they simply needed a connection to that battery and it’s a way to do that without running a dedicated cable back to the battery itself. It’s just a constant 12V to wherever that cable goes, regardless of the switch position. It’s going to be to another switch in that gang, again, to avoid running multiple heavy cables back under the dinette.

For the House and Engine 1, 2, Both makes perfect sense because you have two the 8D’s, the genset battery should not be an option for them.

As to the genset, can’t see anything there but likely they are giving you the option of the dedicated Grp 27 or one of the 8D’s.

The 8D's are AGM, right? They should not be FLA if they are under the dinette.
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Rob S.
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1974 Chris Craft 36' Commander Tournament
Cummins 6BTA 330B's

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Luck is the residue of good design.
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by Nancy »

Thanks, Dag. Unfortunately, there is no owner's manual . . . I don't believe Albin ever produced one. I'll keep your ideas in mind, but first, we want to understand what we've got. :shock:
Nancy
2005 Albin 35CB
Yanmar 6LYA-STP 370
Valentine

Former boats
1995 Albin 28TE, Cummins 6BTA5.9 250, 2012-2022
1978 Trojan F32, 1998-2012
1983 Grady White 241 Weekender, 1988-1997
1980 Wellcraft 192 Classic, 1983-1987
Nancy
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by Nancy »

Thanks, Rob...this is a lot to absorb.
RobS wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:56 am Got a pic of your three batteries and the battery charger? Is it a 3-bank charger with dedicated feeds to each 8D and the Gen battery? Check for lighter gauge wires at each battery that could be the battery charger feeds direct from the charger, not through the selector switches.
Yes, it's a 3-bank charger. I'll have to take that bottom cover off to see what's really going on with the wires. If you click on the photos so see them full size (including the ones in my previous post), a lot more detail is visible. There is a smaller gauge red wire on the house and engine batteries, so maybe they're the feeds from the battery charger. I don't see that type of wire on the generator battery.

battery charger-1-08.11.22-2040.jpg
battery charger-2-08.11.22-2040.jpg

House battery:
battery-house-08.11.22-2040.jpg

Engine battery:
battery-engine-08.11.22-2040.jpg

Generator battery:
generator battery 04.05.22-2040.jpg
RobS wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:56 am As to your comment “Position Both has one cable connected”. See attached, that is not an input switch position, that is the load (the device that is taking the power from the inputs on the switch ie, engine, gen house)

Looking at the backside of that engine switch: You only have two batteries, so the two top left and right posts are the two different 8D’s and the center lower stud is the load (the engine). The same should be for the bottom house switch with the load being the house panel and the two different inputs being each 8D.
Now that is an entirely new concept to me ...that the Both position indicates what the power is being supplied *to*, not where it's coming from. "Both" is a very misleading and confusing word choice...hard to wrap my brain around that.
RobS wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 7:56 am The 8D's are AGM, right? They should not be FLA if they are under the dinette.
All three batteries are AGM. The generator battery is a Group 24. What is FLA???
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Nancy
2005 Albin 35CB
Yanmar 6LYA-STP 370
Valentine

Former boats
1995 Albin 28TE, Cummins 6BTA5.9 250, 2012-2022
1978 Trojan F32, 1998-2012
1983 Grady White 241 Weekender, 1988-1997
1980 Wellcraft 192 Classic, 1983-1987
WillieC
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by WillieC »

Flooded lead acid...plain ole battery
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by Norseman »

Nancy wrote: Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:29 pm Thanks, Dag. Unfortunately, there is no owner's manual . . . I don't believe Albin ever produced one. I'll keep your ideas in mind, but first, we want to understand what we've got. :shock:
Perhaps not an Owner's Manual per se, but my boat came with a booklet containing diagrams and other useful information from Albin,
2001 28TE, 6LP-STE, 1,337 hrs, 19X18 four-blade wheel.
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by RobS »

One mystery solved. The battery charge is properly wired direct to the 8D batteries so when it is in used your selector switch positions are a non-issue. Since the genset battery is located in a rear bilge compartment far from the battery charger, there is no reason to run a charger feed all that distance when you already have the heavy cable run from the battery to the selector switch. The gen battery charging feed should be on the selector switch connected to the same post as the heavy cable running aft to the gen battery. Go back to the charger, the 2 red leads together to the left are going to your 8D's, follow the singe red that goes right towards your raw water pump, follow that for the gen battery charging.

As to your comment: "the Both position indicates what the power is being supplied *to*, not where it's coming from". No. Forget trying to use the labeling on the front of the switch to understand the three posts on the back of the switch. Look at that diagram I posted: With the switch in Pos 1 only the top left battery is feeding the load. In Pos 2 only the top right battery is feeding the load. Put the switch in the Both position and it's joining the batteries together and both are feeding the load (synonymous of a parallel connection with same voltage, twice the capacity)
Rob S.
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1974 Chris Craft 36' Commander Tournament
Cummins 6BTA 330B's

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"TOY-RIFIC" 2000 28TE, 6LP, Hull 408

Luck is the residue of good design.
Nancy
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by Nancy »

Rob, this is great - thank you - I understand now how the House and Engine switches work. One thing that was throwing me is that the shelf for the 8D batteries is labeled "engine" and "house". That's just wrong. Those batteries should be designated 1 and 2, and then everything would make a lot more sense. So we'll figure out which is which and label accordingly. Then we'll have the option to choose if we want to designate, say, battery 1 as providing the engine load and #2 for the house load. If we're at anchor and want to preserve #1 for engine starting, we could set the Engine switch to 1 and the House switch to 2.

In reality, it's silly to have an 8D as a starting battery, so we'll probably think about connecting those 8D's in parallel, and designate them as Bank 2 for the house load, and add a dedicated, smaller starting battery as Bank 1 for the engine load. How does that sound?

That leaves me with questions on the Generator switch and battery. I followed the lead that comes out of the battery charger and heads to the right. Of course it disappears. But there's a cable exactly that size connected to the Position 2 terminal of the Generator switch (assuming that looking at the back of the switch, the terminal on the left is Position 2). So I think you're right that the gen battery charging feed is connected to the switch. So if the Gen switch is turned off, it seems like the gen battery is *not* being charged??

Continuing the logic of the House and Engine loads, what does the Generator load consist of? Isn't it just the generator battery? And what is feeding that load in Positions 1 and 2?

Last question for this post: what's your best guess as to how the three bilge pumps are wired? I see only one extra red wire attached to the house battery.

Just for fun, I'm attaching a photo of the generator switch. Very tough to photograph.
battery switch-generator-08.12.22.jpg
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Nancy
2005 Albin 35CB
Yanmar 6LYA-STP 370
Valentine

Former boats
1995 Albin 28TE, Cummins 6BTA5.9 250, 2012-2022
1978 Trojan F32, 1998-2012
1983 Grady White 241 Weekender, 1988-1997
1980 Wellcraft 192 Classic, 1983-1987
Nancy
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by Nancy »

Dag, we inherited a binder full of equipment manuals, but no plumbing or electrical drawings.
Nancy
2005 Albin 35CB
Yanmar 6LYA-STP 370
Valentine

Former boats
1995 Albin 28TE, Cummins 6BTA5.9 250, 2012-2022
1978 Trojan F32, 1998-2012
1983 Grady White 241 Weekender, 1988-1997
1980 Wellcraft 192 Classic, 1983-1987
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by RobS »

Following your same order:

Yes, indeed they should be labeled batt 1 and batt 2.

Yes on having the 8D’s as a dedicated house bank and something like a dedicated Grp 31 for the engine. You’ll just need to figure out your alternator charging. You’ll need to do your research on things like Blue Seas ACRs or Victron Isolators. Lots of options out there….

No, the Gen battery charging lead is on the same post as the heavy cable going aft back to gen battery, therefore they are ALWAYS connected regardless of the position of the switch.

The generator load is only the starting of the generator itself, nothing else. My guess is one input on the gen switch is going to be that small battery in the aft bilge area and the second input is going to be one of the 8D’s, just as a backup to the small battery.

Albin used to like to install an always hot bus bar for things like bilge pumps and radio memory. Start at the easiest pump and work backwards. They could also be wired to one of the battery switches, but not on the load side of the switch because then they could be turned off, they would be wired to one of the input posts, just like the gen charging lead.

Looking at your Gen Switch photo and descriptions:

“Another small red wire” – 99.9% that is the feed to the voltmeter on the DC panel. You should have a DC meter with a small toggle switch for monitoring the voltage of the different batteries.

“This red wire seems to be attached to this screw” – That is not a wire, that is the plastic housing of the switch.

“Generator charging feed” – Good find!
Rob S.
"TENACIOUS"
1974 Chris Craft 36' Commander Tournament
Cummins 6BTA 330B's

(Former Owner)
"TOY-RIFIC" 2000 28TE, 6LP, Hull 408

Luck is the residue of good design.
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by WillieC »

Good eyes on the switch housing. It sure looked like a wire to me, which made no sense at all. And it was not landed at the screw. Following the geometrical arc of the not-wire clockwise, another portion of the housing appears behind a larger wire.

Nicely done.

At some point, is there not an issue with combiners or echo chargers connected to different battery types?

In Nancy’s case, with deep cycle house batts and the suggestion to install a grp 31 for start battery, the start battery should (must) be of the same chemistry as the house bank. In her case, AGM. The charge profile set by the regulator on the engine powered alternator would keep both sets properly charged through a combiner or echo charger.

This all gets tricky with the various battery chemistries available. Twin engines adds more flexibility but also more complexity.
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Re: Complicated battery switches

Post by RobS »

WillieC wrote: Sat Aug 13, 2022 10:55 am .....In Nancy’s case, with deep cycle house batts and the suggestion to install a grp 31 for start battery, the start battery should (must) be of the same chemistry as the house bank.
Yup, hence the $400 battery just to start the gen...
Rob S.
"TENACIOUS"
1974 Chris Craft 36' Commander Tournament
Cummins 6BTA 330B's

(Former Owner)
"TOY-RIFIC" 2000 28TE, 6LP, Hull 408

Luck is the residue of good design.
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