Albin 28 TE flush deck w/ yanmar 6lpa-stp 315 – water in cylinders and sump

[gcmarshall]

Hi all,
I’m trying to understand why this would have happened and how I can stop it from happening again.

The engine has on 8,700 hours, 8000 of which we have put on since we bought the boat in Jan 2017.

My boat was on a 4 day commercial fishing trip. My captain went to start the boat on Thursday morning to head home, and just heard “clunk”, as the starting motor would not turn the motor. We had assumed starting motor issues, as while it had never given trouble we were planning to get it serviced soon. I got the boat towed back to shore that day and offloaded the catch on Friday. The mechanic was a no-show on Saturday, and on Sunday I just decided to check the oil (which had just been changed before this trip) and realized it was about an inch and a half above the maximum mark on the dip stick. I then tried turning the engine using a socket on the flywheel and could not get it to budge. I got the oil pump, and pumped the oil up through the dipstick connection to check it, and at least a gallon of clear salt water came out first, before oil started to come.
Note that my coolant levels were fine, and my coolant is a bright orange colour. Definitely was not coolant in the oil.
Unfortunately my mechanic was a no-show again on Sunday. I removed the valve cover, but quickly realized that removing the injectors was beyond my limited knowledge. I arranged for a different mechanic to come on Monday (yesterday) and using a 6mm threaded rod devised as a slide hammer, he was able to remove the injectors, after removing the fuel return line. After squirting some penetrating lubricant down the injector holes, we were able to turn the engine by hand. Water hit the roof of the cabin from the pistons pushing the water out of the cylinders. We then cranked the engine briefly using the starting motor (with seacock closed) to clear out the remainder of the water. We then stopped for the evening due to fading light, after putting some more rust inhibitor lubricant in the injector holes.

I believe he will use diesel to flush the engine today, followed by an oil change or two. But any advice /suggestions here is appreciated.

Now, the main possibilities seem to be either relating to the oil cooler, or maybe an issue with the exhaust mixing elbow, or seawater back up the exhaust into the turbo, and then engine.

The engine has been working flawlessly without issue, and this trip was no different. My captain is also excellent in terms of picking up a change in engine noise. He would have run the engine for about 16 hours that day before switching off the night about 9 pm, and drifted till 4 am the morning when he went to start back up and have the issue. The sea did get rough overnight (but he has operated in plenty of rough conditions before also over the last ~ 5 years).
I would think that if it was the oil cooler, it would have had to occur while the engine was running, and he would have likely noticed some change in the engine noise. He would have idled for about 3 hours after dark, so may not have noticed any change to exhaust gases/smoke. I’m not sure what would be expected here, but I don’t think the engine would have liked a gallon of water in the sump, and cylinders full of water. I’m also not sure the cylinders could get full of water in this manner, via the engine running. So I am doubtful of this.

In relation to the exhaust. I changed the stock cast iron yanmar exhaust riser and mixing elbow with stainless steel replacements from HDI Marine back in 2017. (https://hdimarine.net/product/hot-1-sta ... ust-riser/ ). I had taken pics of the exhaust at the time and Tony advised that sea water appeared to have gotten to it at some point in time. In installing the new riser/mixing elbow, I rotated them slightly more, to get about an inch more height (before butting with the floor of the boat). Again, I have not had any sort of issue with water in the oil since that time.

I will also mention that occasionally this year while the boat has been on the open ocean drifting, my captain has had a “hard start” where he has to crank the engine slightly longer than normal. Normally the engine starts very easily, and never gives trouble starting at the mooring. He put this down to the boat listing slightly on one side while drifting, and thinking it was fuel related. I’m not sure I agree with this, but it does not happen very often. Note that the boat is also very loaded up with ice, fuel and so on for these fishing trips, so sits a little lower in the water.

My expectation is that sea water coming back through the exhaust is the culprit, and even though I have never seen sea water in the sump before on doing an oil change, or noticed the oil level being high, perhaps it didn’t happen in this quantity, and was the reason for the occasional hard start in the ocean.
If this is the issue, what options do I have? I can’t get the exhaust any higher, and the rubber hose that fits onto this runs at a decline from the engine, to the port side of the boat, then into a large fiberglass pipe running down the port side to the stern, exiting at the water level on the port side at the stern. I have no flapper valves. We used to stick a buoy in the exhaust hole when drifting but it used to come out easily, and at any rate, water would be in the fiberglass exhaust pipe anyway, so it might help with a “wave” but not with water coming up the exhaust due to an extended roll of the boat in heavy seas. I saw some suggestion of using a valve in the exhaust, but even if I could install one suitably, it would seem that was an accident waiting to happen, as forget it shut once, and you would have a major issue.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to give as clear a picture as possible. Thanks for any help or suggestions.

I have also posted at https://www.sbmar.com/community/topic/n ... ar/page/6/ for advice from Tony Athens & crew. Lots of pics on that post.

Thanks - Gary

[Norseman]

Wow..
Impressive with 8,000 + hours on the Yanmar.
No idea why or how this happened to your Albin, but I had the exact same thing on sailboat I owned for 14 years.
One time, while heavily loaded for a 4 week Exuma trip from South Florida, and while anchored in Miami, the engine would not start next morning, click, click said the starter.
Batteries were good, plenty of voltage..
Tried to turn the motor, no cigar.
Removed the injectors and hit the start button, grey oil/water mix shooting out.
(Easy to remove the injectors on a Perkins 4108.)

The exhaust was at the stern close to the water, with the heavy load of fuel, water, stores, etc the exhaust got under water and a small plastic syphon breaker had clogged up with salt and the sea water got sucked into the cylinders.
I did an oil/filter change on the spot, sailed home for a day or two to trouble shoot and do another oil change, then back out again.

Trying to think how that could happen on an Albin 28TE with the Yanmar.
First time I heard it happen.

Please keep us posted on what it was? Damage Oil Cooler or flooded exhaust, whatever.
Either way, bad news..

[Tree]

The other suspect could be the fuel cooler but that I would expect to fail while running and the float valve in the filter to stop water entering the engine.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with it being the exhaust - can only think it was some pretty big seas for it to happen.

[gcmarshall]

Thanks. I didn't think of the fuel cooler. But as you said, it would have to be while running, and once the fuel injectors started ejecting saltwater into the cylinders I think the engine would have complained immediately. In this case, engine worked fine until the boat was stopped, and the seas got pretty rough while drifting overnight.

The reasons against the exhaust would be..
1) I have searched on this forum, and the net in general, and I haven't found that to be a complaint on this boat, with this engine set up. Although as it is low below the floor, even though when I changed my exhaust elbows to stainless steel, I re-angled them slightly and re-oriented the water hose, so that they are just about touching the bottom of the floor (to be at the highest possible point)

2) This isn't the first time we have drifted in rough seas. However, it might just be a case where it just takes that 1/100 extreme extended roll for it to happen.

Anyone knows if that big fiberglass muffler pipe that runs down the port side has in any baffles, or other means to stop water getting back up the hose to the exhaust?

Btw, we got the engine started back yesterday evening. Mechanic said to use it for about an hour today, and then change the oil again.

[gcmarshall]

see same update as below, but with pics, at sbmar - https://www.sbmar.com/community/topic/n ... ost-127917


Hi all –
Long post warning…
Just wanted to document what modifications I have done so far with my exhaust. I am a novice, and learning, so critical comments are welcome.
I removed the exhaust elbows off the engine and inspected the turbo. It looked similar to my previous inspection in late 2017, with some rust present, but the flan blades and such still looked in good shape. Of more concern was the unevenness where the elbow bolts onto. I did my best with the orbital sander, wire brush and hand file to remove all exterior rust, apply an ospho rust treatment, and paint the exterior with a high temp 2000 F paint, and ensure the mating surface was level. I bolted back on the two elbows with new v-clamp and metal gaskets (it’s a real pain to ensure the gasket is in position before tightening down, with the limited access). I had removed some 2” insulation above the mixing elbow so I was able to rotate it slightly more, and raise it slightly.

I replace the 4” exhaust hose with a new one, as the old one had a noticeable bulge in one area, and I have not replaced it since I owned the boat in 2017.
The Centek muffler I removed, and added a 1” Groco thru hull which I glassed in with a mix of csm/woven mat, using epoxy resin. A 1” hose attaches to this, and runs down to the bilge, with a Groco bronze valve on the end, which is easily accessible from a hatch in the cabin (behind the steps). Unfortunately this muffler is under the water line, so exhaust water always remains in it, and I wanted a way to remove all exhaust water from the system.
I would have liked to put in a surge tube between this Centek muffler and the engine elbow, but the room/height I don’t think would have allowed for an effective design, as the existing slope from the exhaust elbow I did not want to make any more gradual.
Now, as the Centek muffler is below the water line, I made a goose neck using Centek 5” fiberglass tubing from Defender.com. I cut the angles using a miter saw & angle grinder (as the miter saw blade was not large enough). I generally made 15 degree angle cuts, so the angle was more gradual heading up the goose neck, with a steeper downhill run before exiting the boat on the port side. I raised the gooseneck to just below the floor, which was the maximum I could easily do it, still trying to ideally keep it slightly lower than the exhaust on the engine, for a safety margin.
Now, the boat has launched, and all had worked well, except for the following flaws.
When the boat is light, the top of the gooseneck is above the water line comfortably. However, when the boat is fully loaded with ice and fuel, water sloshes over the gooseneck whenever the boat rolls. This is very dangerous as the valve needs to be open whenever the engine is off, and the bilge pumps/float switches need to be working well. Otherwise if the valve is off, the centek muffler is likely to fill and water rise in the exhaust system, to the level of the gooseneck/exhaust elbow, and the engine will drink some more saltwater.
As a temporary measure, we are opening the new muffler valve, and plugging the exhaust with a foam buoy shaped to fit the internal 5” fiberglass elbow to reduce water entry.
As a longer term measure, I plan to either raise the height of the goose neck by seeing if it can fit inside the “wall” of the boat side. I might take Tony’s suggestion in another post and utilize a square section for the exhaust here, to ensure I keep at least the same surface area as the 5” tubing, as I don’t think the 5” tubing itself will fit here). If I have space for this to work, the only issue would be that the height of the gooseneck will be above the height of the engine elbow, so I risk flooding the engine if the valve is closed, and there is excess sea water in the system (either from entering over the raised elbow, or from cranking the engine excessively if it has a starting issue)
Or, keep the existing goose neck, but rather than route the exhaust out the side of the boat, I have enough room in the transom at the port side to bring it up and out the boat, above the swim platform, well above the water line. I assume the exhaust might be a little louder here as it wouldn’t be exiting in the water, but for sure, water should not be able to enter the exhaust via the exit, and even if it did, the goose neck would add significant protection, and I would still likely open the valve to drain water in the system.

Happy to hear any criticism, thoughts, suggestions....