Newbie from Germany

[MarkP07]

Hi there , i am Mark from Kiel in Germany. We ve just bought a 1975 Albin 25.de Luxe with an Volvo Penta M3b or 17c ( i have to check that)
We ve owned several boats, mostly with planing hull. So this is a very unusual sort of boat for us. But we love it. It is small outside and unexpectedly roomy inside. The preowner hold it in a neat condition.
We plan to make extensive tours on East-and Northsea after Corona. For now we will stay in germany and german coast.
Please excuse my english, it's from school 40 years ago

[DCatSea]

Hi Mark
Wilkommen to the AOG forum. I'm sure you will find answers to any questions you may have about your A25 here; there is a very active group of 25-ers with years of experience.
My wife and I have some experience of German rivers, having hiked the Lech and (briefly) cruised the Main. You are well placed to cruise many of Europe's rivers, and have a great boat to do it in.

Stay safe and well.

[jcollins]

Welcome. Thank you for the donation.

[Nancy]

Welcome, Mark! Your English is excellent.

[DesertAlbin736]

Wilkomen am der gruppen! My ancestry goes back 7 generations to 18th century colonials who were German speaking Swiss Palatines from Bern area who migrated down the Rhine to Rotterdam, took ship to Plymouth, England & on to Philadelphia and became what were known as "Pennsylvania Dutch". Dutch referred to "Deutche", not Hollanders.
You made a wise choice in picking an Albin 25 & coming here & joining this dedicated group of "Albineers". This is life in the slow lane compared to fast planing boats.

Sadly the last in our family to speak German was my grandfather, and that was likely the archaic old dialect of those "Pennsylvania Dutch".

[Norseman]

. Sadly the last in our family to speak German was my grandfather, and that was likely the archaic old dialect of those "Pennsylvania Dutch".

German is easy, even the little kids over there knows how to speak it.

[MarkP07]

Thank you for your warm welcome.
We've just explored our Albin in a short holiday of two days and 50 sm. We noticed that she is able to make 8 knots at 1500 U/min and tends to roll more in the short waves of eastsee than the Fjord 26 Consul we own before, but less than a Saga 27.
The noise of the engine is ok, but the vibrations and roaring seems to be not normal to me. Maybe i have to check the prop? Or is it because of the 3 cyl. Design?

[WillieC]

Depends on what you mean by vibrations and roaring...seems perfectly reasonable to me.
BTW, Welcome!

The MD3B has 6 bolts per head. The extra two are visible on the port side of each head just above the intake ports. The MD17C has only 4 head bolts. Two under the valve cover and two visible on the injector side of the head.

These are, shall we say, robust engines. Our 17C sounds like a bucket of bolts in a washing machine until it warms up and our hearing dims. Then she purrs...sort of.

Take your time. Get used to her. And check out all the obvious things. Ours was very noisy when we got it and I found shot engine mounts (the rubber was oil saturated) and horribly unaligned engine to shaft. I also replaced the cutlass bearing, but I don't think that was critical with little sideplay.

The rest of the noise kind of grows on you. Like living above a bar before Covid days. If they play your favorite tunes.

[DesertAlbin736]

Depends on what you mean by vibrations and roaring...seems perfectly reasonable to me.
BTW, Welcome!

Ja, ja. Rick, aka WillieC, & I have cruised together up into the wilds of British Columbia, Canada's "Inside Passage" (parts of which rival Norway's fjords in beauty). The noise issue in my opinion boils down to the Volvo engine compared to other types. Since Albin 25's are old boats many have had their original engines replaced with other makes. Also the earliest models had smaller engines due to the original full displacement hull design until the change to the "DeLuxe" version mit der flared stern underbody to make it "semi-displacement" and increase speed to 8 knots and horsepower to 36 HP from the earliest 21 HP AD21 engine. Our boat is an early version that had the original AD21 engine replaced with a 24 HP Yanmar. It also has a constant velocity joint and thrust bearing shaft coupling unit with the trade name "AquaDrive" which also includes soft "floating" engine mounts. While our top speed is 6.5 knots compared to 8, it runs virtually vibration free and quiet enough for normal conversation while running at 2,400 RPM cruising speed. Until I got a ride in another Albin 25 with a Volvo MD17C engine (not WillieC) I never knew just how noisy they could be, just assumed they all ran quiet like ours.

In regards to rolling in beam seas & short waves, yes they do. It's an inherent property of having a rounded hull and no weighted keel like a sailboat. They do fine running head on into the waves, but they do not like beam seas & can "snap roll" 30 degrees one way to 30 degrees the other. The best way to counter that is "quarter" the waves by zig-zaging like a sailboat tacking. Even then it's not a comfortable ride.

[WillieC]

Snap roll....pshaw

Makes life exciting! As long as it snaps back.

[MarkP07]

Thank you for all that stuff of information. It shows, that my boat is normal in every way
It's not surprising, that a 47 years old MD3B do not work like a new one. I ve noticed the following issues:
It starts very good and fast, cold and hot.
It smokes white a bit, same cold and hot.
It smells like a diesel and there is a fine Diesel fluid in water, same cold and hot.
There are massive vibrations.
It is going 6.5 knots at 1200 U/min and 8 knots at 1500 U/min and get not over it, it did not come to the max rpm of 2300 U/min

So I think, that I should look at the engine mounts and the injectors for a smoother run and better power. Maybe I should take down the cylinder heads for new seals or gaskets and valve shaft gaskets. But I m a little afraid of that..." Never touching a running system"

On the other hand I can get a Nanni (Kubota) 4 cylinder Diesel with 38 hp a 4.150 for little money. Maybe I should buy it, overhaul it and put that into my Albin?

[WillieC]

Interesting conundrums with which I am very familiar. Our MD3B started easy, ran well, made a racket, leaked oil, left a filmy trail the EPA, Coast Guard, and Fisheries could trace to my door. Time for action. Read all about it in my thread:

http://www.albinowners.net/aog/viewtopi ... 17C#p59640

The reason I chose to work on the 17C vs. the 3B is that the 17C has replaceable liners, where the 3B cylinders are of a piece with the water jacket...more machine work may be involved. Not impossible to be sure, but more fooling.

There are a lot of issues involved with installing a different engine...mounts, shaft, controls, prop, engine bed mods, exhaust improvements, electrical (maybe)...the list goes on. None of these are cheap to accomplish and add directly to the cost of a different engine. Even a FREE different engine.

The main thing with the 3B is how much do you know about its condition, hours, maintenance, oil pressure, FWC or seawater cooled... Given its age if it is still running as the original seawater (No heat exchanger) cooled, either it has very few hours, was meticulously maintained or run only in fresh water. If it has an (aftermarket, the only way they came back then) HX, then that is a positive.

Lots to ponder. Think it through. Go rob a bank...kidding and keep us posted.

ps.. After all I have been through, maybe, just maybe a brand new in the box modern engine would be nice. The trouble is, is that all this experience with working on this engine and this boat, only NOW do I have the knowledge of how to do an engine swap.
And I'd still be at least 10-15 Grand poorer.

If buying used, I'd suggest getting a documented runner and install as is. Good luck finding that engine. Oh, you'll find a seller, guaranteed. Remember, you will only be putting a couple hundred hours/year on the boat, at best. A top end rebuild on the 3B is very doable and not difficult. May be good enough if oil pressure is good.

[DesertAlbin736]

WillieC is the last word on '3B & '17C VP. You name it he's been there, done that & has the T-shirt & bruised knuckles to show for it. My only suggestion is if possible see if you can find & beg demonstration rides on boats with similar engines, not necessarily an Albin 25 but any boat with a similar perfectly running VP engine & a Nanni/Kubota, which in this country are known as "Beta" and other makes. Then decide which would be more pleasant to live with and how much it might be worth to either rebuild the 3B or buy & install the Nanni according to the limits of your budget.

[MarkP07]

@WillieC: Thank you very much for that inspiring Thread about your restoration! Yesterday I very read it completely - and it helps me! For now I think, that i will check my engine, maybe there are only small things to correct. But I WILL NOT restore it! I think, I would invest my time better in a newer motor. I can get that Nanni Diesel for 500 Euro, that is about 560 $. Maybe, I buy it and store it anywhere for that time I'll need it, and work on it during the next years.

But first I will try to fix my MD3B. I will check the injectors, and, inspired by your thread, look after the injection pump. You told something about a screw at the pump, which helps you to get yours to 2500rpm. Mine isn't working more than 1500 RPM with full throttle. Can you tell me, where exactly I'll find that screw?
I think, that I have the Albin 25 de Luxe with semidisplacement Hull. Its Hull Nr. 1696; did anyone can tell me, if I'm right?

[WillieC]

Get your pump and injectors checked. And check your compression. Getting a compression tester to fit is not something you can get from your local auto parts store. Do the cheap armstrong compression test by grabbing the flywheel and turning the engine over by hand. Do this with a cold engine. You don't want to be surprised by having the engine start with your hand stuck in the works. You may have a guard over the flywheel as they originally came from the factory. Most of those by now have been discarded. As viewed from the rear, the engine turns counter clockwise. Pull the top of the flywheel toward the alternator. Bump the starter if confused.

Our MD3B spun so easily, I had trouble tellling where top dead center was on any of the cylinders. TDC aligns with each of the three spokes on the flywheel. Remember this is a four stroke engine. It takes two flywheel revolutions to go through all four strokes for all three cylinders, thus every other spoke-at-top indicates TDC on compression. Sorry for the confusion. My dirty tee-shirt indicates too much time spent on these engines.

With lousy compression, our MD3B still started easily, but it is still indicative of internal wear. When cold, my shiny new engine is fairly easy to turn over by hand, but approaching TDC on each compression stroke, the flywheel kicks back. When warm, I cannot spin it by hand over TDC. There you go. Poor man's compression test.

As to the screw. Careful, careful. That is how I most recently screwed up my shiny new engine. You will note that there are drilled bolt heads for safety wiring the adjustment covers. I am certain that back in the day, when a certified VP mechanic touched any of the injection system, they wired them and put their certified stamp of DON'T MESS WITH THIS THANG OR YOU WILL SCREW UP YOUR ENGINE! I missed that notice and went to grad school on how to coke up my engine in one easy step. This is a perfect time to apply the don't mess with it if it ain't busted. RATHER, after the compression check, get your injectors tested first. Run it. Get it warm...hot. Then decide if you want to mess with the injection pump. These are robust units and if not left to rot and rust by non-use are fairly bullet proof. Don't forget that if you decide to remove the injection pump, you will need new factory gasket(s) to re-install. Thickness of same is critical as this is how injection timing is adjusted. (Leave the pump alone for now, is my suggestion. You can really screw it up if you drop the throttle link inside the engine or get the gasket thickness wrong or wake up on the wrong side of bed.)

I haven't heard if you have a heat exchanger or use raw water for cooling. I found failing head gaskets by losing coolant and oil appearing in my heat exchanger. Also, are your cylinder water jackets oozing oil at the bottom where they seal to the crankcase? This can indicate failing o-rings internally which are meant to keep coolant out of the crankcase. A little weep is normal and required for general anti-rust protection for the bottom of the engine. It also adds a nice sheen to the entire contents of the inside of the engine box. The alternator also takes on a lubricious patina as it spews all that oil evenly throughout the compartment.

Repeat. Do not mess with the screw. (It is under the odd shaped cover at the rear of the engine crankcase just in back of the injection pump. It has an odd hump projecting aft, has five or six small screws and one large bolt at the top that goes all the way through to the crankcase.) Now if all checks out and you still can't make it go...make sure you have the engine manual with you. That is rule number one.

We haven't talked about setting the valves. This is done with a warm engine and is really where one should start. Here is another easy compression check. Get the engine running and feel each intake horn. Is it sucking nicely or lazily? Very scientific, right? Worst case, is it blowing OUT? That is how I discovered my coked up heads holding my intake valves open. Notice that it still ran with one or two intake valves NOT CLOSING! Love my VP.

I can bore you to tears. Surely in Deutschland there is somebody's uncle nearby who knows these things inside out? Keep me posted!

Take things slowly. If all checks out and you can't get revs out of it, the throttle may simply be set incorrectly. Here you need the manual. It is fairly well explained therein and rarely requires adjustment...unless somebody touched it. Also, your throttle cable may have slipped its holding points, or bushings are worn...

You have awakened the beast. Again go slowly. Grab the $500 engine and plan your bank robbery carefully.