Prospects for a Volvo Penta MD 17 C or repowering

[nebulatech]

Hi All!

As I'm sure several of you are aware, I'm now the proud owner of an A25. I mistakenly believed this boat came with a Yanmar engine, but it turns out to be a Volvo Penta MD 17 C. I've not done any testing yet (lack of battery, questionable fuel, need to hook up a water supply), but it is my understanding that the engine runs, but not under load. I was told there is low compression in two cylinders and one cylinder needs new valves. All in all, this doesn't seem like too big a project, and I'm considering whether to repair the motor or replace it. As a sailor of 20+ years, I've spent a lot of time around inboard diesels, but most of my repair work has been limited to fixing misaligned alternator brackets (and replacing the resultant shredded belts), fixing fuel systems, and working on exhausts. I have rebuilt a few outboards, and I do all of my own maintenance on my terrestrial vehicles. This positions me squarely as an amateur mechanic.

I have already read many threads concerning A25 repowers. I already know to expect to have motor mount and alignment issues if I repower. When I believed the motor to be a Yanmar, I looked them up on eBay, sold listings only, to give an idea of the volume of sales traffic, and found that used 36hp Yanmar engines sell about 1-2/month, and even a "parts only" motor would sell for over $2k, near the cost of a Vetus 20hp. It seems like the Volvo MD17C doesn't sell as often, but still seems to be a popular engine, so I would assume the same rates to apply for the Volvo as the Yanmar. Does this seem reasonable?

Still without any investigation, I believe I could fix the Volvo for less than a repower, and have a more powerful engine. Ideally, I would like to be able to do 10+ knots. However, a new engine comes with a warranty and a greater assumed level of reliability. With a 20hp Vetus, I don't expect to make 10 knots, nor do I really expect any gained fuel economy (greater range). I believe Jerry Cans are the solution for increased range. I'm not a diesel mechanic, nor do I have handy all of the tools to pull the motor and restore it correctly. I can gain short term access to a crane and some chain to do a one-time engine swap, but I don't have a good shop space to get a 360 view of the motor and replace everything I would want to in order to make it more reliable.

With the above preamble, I'm hoping some of you can weigh in from both camps; rebuild versus repower.

To add to the discussion, without the intent to rile anyone up, let me add that I am strongly interested in doing an all electric conversion. If I can get close to a 100nm range, I would probably do it. Still in the research phase. I've already read where an A27 owner postulated such a conversion, and the overwhelming response was against such a move. I know a 20hp diesel is not a big polluter and I'm not trying to save the world (yet). What I'm mainly interested in is not having the sound and odors involved with an inboard diesel. I've spent plenty of time sailing offshore and running the waterways in sailboats, which as most people know, spend a large portion of their transit time under power. I'm used to the sound and the smell. For me, its nostalgic and comforting. I enjoy it. My wife however does not, and it's a lot to get used to for her. Again, I'm not full bore against a diesel (I just bought one). I'm just weighing the advantages of electric against it's only real con (a big one), which is limited range.

Just to add perspective to the concept, if one is to search "electric tollycraft" on Youtube, there is a Canadian gentleman who has converted a 30' Tollycraft to all electric, twin 9kw motors, and gets a range of around 30+ nm. The Tolly has a dry weight of 11,500lbs, so over twice an A25. I would estimate a single 9-10kw motor, with the same amount of batteries would double that range. Add in a generator to top off at the anchorage, and you've got decent range to run the waterway. There's no way this would do 10 knots. More like 4.5-5 for the range. Not quite what I was hoping for, hence the consideration of the 20hp Vetus.

It's really about the odors: I know adding a generator seems to defeat the purpose of all electric. A Honda 2kw generator on the aft deck produces less offensive odors than I've experienced with inboard diesels. My experience is anecdotal, and mostly involves 20+ year old motors. Still, a little oil spill in the bilge, some spilled diesel changing the Racor filter, toss that around in a seaway and it gets all over. Again, I'm used to it, but as the adage goes, "Happy wife, happy life." Can anyone in the repower camp weigh in on odors and sound?

Finally, in the likely event I decide to repower (diesel or electric), is there anyone interested in the existing motor? There seems to be a market for them, but it's always best to give first dibs to those close to you, and the advice I've received from this forum has been invaluable. I know there's a "for sale" subforum which I will post in if I decide to sell it.

Thank you in advance for your insight!

[WillieC]

Hold that thought. Once again, for the third time, I have my MD17C torn apart, mainly due to my learning curve. I am nowhere near approaching the cost of a new engine...yet. But I am getting tired of learning.

Write a check, a big one, for a shiny red engine and have the experts do it and warrantee it. And if they get it right the first time...yeehaw!

Or go electric if the range will work for you. Drive from power pedestal to pedestal and enjoy the sights. Who would be doing the install? A bit of its own learning curve there, since they are not widespread.

[dkirsop]

I am sure a problem hasn't been found MD17C that WillieC hasn't confronted so he's your goto guy for your upcoming project should you elect to rebuild.

With respect to cruising speed for the A25 about 6-6.5 knots is the practical limit which also returns a range of 200plus nautical miles between refuelling stops. Anything more and your ear drums suffer, your wallet shrinks and your anxiety level rises. This coincides to the hull speed for the boat.

An upgrade I highly recommend is an auto-pilot. It really helps to reduce the strain on long legs of a long distance cruise.

[nebulatech]

Hi WillieC!

Thank you for your reply.

Write a check, a big one, for a shiny red engine and have the experts do it and warranty it.

By big check, are you suggesting a big motor, over 20 HP? By red, are you endorsing a brand? The only red marine diesel I'm familiar with is Westerbeke, but that's my limited experience.

Who would be doing the install?

I would be the installer. I'm experienced with electrical and electronics. I am thinking that if the battery calculations make sense for range, I would use the 10kw package from Thunderstruck, possibly with the gear reduction kit:
https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/electr ... -motor-ev/

They are one of the lowest cost options, and I'm sure it's for a reason, but I won't be leaving my home port for some time. This would let me get familiar with the working pieces. The nice thing about electric is, other than matching the controller to the motor, the other parts are fairly agnostic and easily interchangeable. Even the controllers are typically up to the task with most motors of the same type and approximate size, making future upgrades reasonably priced.

Drive from power pedestal to pedestal and enjoy the sights.

That, or run the Honda 2k at anchor. I plan on building a hard top extension (next year?), but even with that space, solar panels are probably not worth the trouble. I'm still waiting to hear back from some experts regarding range. If I can find a way to make 100nm feasible, I'll probably try it.

Oh, just to be clear, I'm not knocking solar. I would have it on my house right now, but we need a new roof first (it costs a lot to remove the panels for re-roofing). For charging a house bank, solar is probably great. No one I sailed with had panels, but many people at the docks did. Much quieter than a windmill.

[WillieC]

Since you have the 36HP VP engine, I am assuming you have the DeLuxe, MarkII, Super-duper-expialidocious hull. If you are going to go diesel, don't go less than the 36 HP, and that all depends on how everybody is measuring HP. Then again, if you will always be on calm water, with no current, or wind, you can prolly get away with 20hp. Where we motor, I sometimes find myself pedal to the metal trying to make three knots. Timing is everything and we are still learning. Remember, with a new engine, EVERYTHING is new. And it is all that incidental stuff that is not incidental. Mounts, engine bed, shaft, coupler, prop, cables and controller, reworked dash for the new panel, cutlass, shaft seal, cup holders...there is no end to it. Thus the big check. You could have somebody drop the engine in and you could finish, but by the time you did, the warrantee might be up on the engine. At least that is how I like to pace myself.

(The red motor I am thinking of is the Beta. I have considered installing a used engine, say a yanmar, but I already have three used engines, HA!) The best deal is the boat that somebody has already spent their life savings on with new everything. I could put a 15-20 thou engine in the WillieC and have a boat worth 15 or 20K. But I like tinkering, to a point which I am rapidly approaching, and these old engines can still run.

OR, pay somebody to overhaul the engine. Stxray might have something to say about that. Shiny new paint that actually sticks to the engine will cost extra. If we hadn't blown the original head gaskets, I seriously considered removing the engine JUST to paint it. At least with fresh paint you can see where she's leaking. And once the engine is rebuilt, reinstalled, realigned...the trial run and dialing in will cost extra. I am on year three of dialing her in. (My last tweak was to wring the last ounce of power out of her and I apparently set her too rich and the intake valves started coking up. Fortunately, I found out now, not in May. Open her up! Oh for a new Beta...)

Lots to consider here. I notice you also have a bit of body and fender to take care of, too.
Keep your day job. I like the idea of Lectrimifucation, but until the next quantum leap in batteries, you will be pretty limited as to distances. Then again, somebody has to try stuff out. Maybe this is your experimental platform and go get the boat that is already done for cruising.

Keep us informed on your plans. We are here to commiserate with you!

[DesertAlbin736]

WillieC says,

I could put a 15-20 thou engine in the WillieC and have a boat worth 15 or 20K.

Ha ha! Hoo boy! You don't want to know! I've gone WAY beyond that in money spent! And didn't even need to repower - my 1986 vintage Yanmar installed courtesy of previous owners still runs great.

But when you wake up at anchor in Desolation Sound, BC and with your morning hot cup o' joe in hand go out on deck to be greeted with scenes like this it's priceless & makes it all worth it.

DSCN4455.JPG

Anyway, seriously, if your boat has the MD17C it is probably the later DeLuxe model. It's a bit hard to tell from your photos that were taken at night, but it appears the chrome Albin 25 emblem on the cabin trunk might include the word "DeLuxe", which if so means it is the later semi-displacement hull design variant. So yes, you would want 36 HP or something close to it. 20HP would be somewhat under powered. I get by with the Yanmar 3GM30F which is rated 24 HP @ 3400 RPM continuous & 27 HP max output @ 3600 RPM WOT. With that I cruise at 6.5 knots & 2350 RPM turning a 16.5 X 12 prop. But then my boat, like dkirsop's is early model full displacement hull.

The dead giveaway between early non-deluxe models & later deluxe/semi displacement is this downward flare of the hull at the stern

Albin (1280x960).jpg

This A25 below, named "Manatee" is currently for sale in Gananoque, ON, Canada, and happens to be owned by AOG member 'sunsetrider'. He's been wanting to upsize to a 34 to 36 ft classic trawler. I only mention this because we visited he and his wife in 2017 during an extended RV road trip we did that year, and he gave us a ride around the Thousand Islands on the St. Lawrence River near Gananoque. It is powered with a Volvo MD17C, and no disrespect to WillieC who I respect dearly, Manatee was shockingly loud and vibrated like an out of balance washing machine compared to our boat. I would add that his advertised price is for the boat only, no trailer.

manatee.jpg

https://www.boatdealers.ca/boats-for-sa ... ue-ontario

It all depends on how much you've invested in your boat already for initial purchase price (hopefully you got a good deal) for it & the trailer, how much other restoration work needs to be done, and your budget. If you've been around sailboats for 20 years (same here, I started sailing seriously in 1998, mostly lake sailing trailer sailers with outboards, including a Windrose 25, Vagabond 14, Montgomery 15, Catalina 22 and 25), so you know how that game is played and the meaning of "Boat Units".

That said, if budget allows & you intend to keep the boat for a long time if it were me I would lean toward a new Beta engine, which is based on reliable Kubota tractor engines, which can mean better deals on parts for the non-marine components. Maybe have a chat with your local Beta dealer guys at Marine Proplusion Inc on Wadmalaw Island, SC?

I refer to this Sound Marine Diesel site to see what a Beta would look like installed in an A25. Otherwise if possible find & talk to someone who has a Beta 38 in a sailboat & see & hear it running. Goes without saying get fresh water cooled version.

http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/Albin25Repower.shtml

[nebulatech]

It is the deluxe model. I trust your advice on motor size. I'm having trouble understanding precisely why being the deluxe model makes the 20hp underpowered. The soundmarine page linked above suggests that a 38hp could push the boat 10+ knots. Are you saying a 20hp would fall short of that potential? WillieC's comments seem to suggest a 20hp would even fall short of hull speed in less than optimal conditions.

I am aware that planing hulls like older Bertrums are less efficient at displacement speeds due to their hull shape. I previously believed the deluxe model would be a better performer than the earlier A25 hulls. Am I mistaken? I feel I'm missing something crucial. DA, you hit hull speed at 2350 rpms. Would your motor and prop in my boat not do that? What is your reduction? I believe I've read it is 2:1...

My cruising experience has mostly been on my mentor's Shannon 38 or on a Grampian 42' one-off (likely the largest boat Grampian ever built). I've personally owned a Sunfish, Rondar 14' and a Ranger 26, along with a couple of center console fishing boats. All project boats, but unless you buy fairly new and trade often, they all are.

I will try to reach out to the dealer on Wadmalaw. If nothing else, I can report a quote.

Thanks again!

[DesertAlbin736]

Oooh, Shannon 38!

Maybe you've seen this, maybe not, but the Canadian Albin club "Albineers of BC" (British Columbia) posted this bit of Albin 25 history on their home page, including this paragraph on engine size:

Early 25s had a 20hp diesel built by Albin themselves (the company originally manufactured some of the smaller models in the Volvo range). This engine was a touch underpowered, giving a top speed of just over eight knots, so in 1971 the builders switched to the 36hp Volvo MD3B, which lifted the speed to around ten knots, depending on load. In 1975 the MD3B was replaced by the similarly rated MD17C, which became the standard engine for the rest of the boat's production life. The Albin 25 might not win any races, but she won't bankrupt the owner either: at nine knots, with an average load, she will use about 1/2 gph.

http://www.albinbc.com/home/albin-25-history

So even the Albin factory people felt 20 HP was a bit under powered.

dkirsop's boat "Sea Quill" has its original 20 HP AD21 engine, lovingly restored & maintained by Dave. But then his boat, like mine, is the early 1971 full displacement version.

IMG_0542 Sea Quill.jpg

Here's a YouTube clip of a Beta 38 engine running. One thing Betas have that Yanmars don't in this HP range is glow plugs for cold starts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-05dk_b8-h4&t=38s

[DesertAlbin736]

A couple more Beta videos, the first one of the 25 HP engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGdWBeqfGFg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLBGsqGhCXg

One question is, down the road how much value would a Beta engine add when the future day comes to sell your boat (hopefully not until you're too old & decrepit to continue boating)? It's difficult to impossible to ever recoup one's total investment in a boat 100% when selling, in fact even being able sell for the same price as the initial purchase, let alone getting back any or all the money spent on repairs & upgrades. I've come close a couple times. In 2001 I bought a 1980 Montgomery 15 pocket cruiser sailboat for $3,500 (at the time new ones sold for around $15K). In 2005 I sold the Monty for $4,700 & bought a 1987 Catalina 22 wing keel for $4,900. After refurbishing the trailer, upgrading the VHF radio, and installing a new Tohatsu 6 HP outboard and some other improvements I sold that boat for $6,400 three years later in 2008, ironically back to the same guy I'd bought it from. From there I bought a 1989 Catalina 25 wing keel, also in 2008, for $10,000. Did major restoration work on the painted steel trailer for that boat and replaced the 2 stroke outboard with a new 4 stroke long shaft Tohatsu 8 HP motor. Kept that boat until 2013 & sold it for the same price I'd paid for it, less all the money I'd spent on various improvements. A year later we found the A25 we have now.

O_Flow_San Diego.JPG

In any case, to me a Beta engine would likely run much quieter, with better low emission standards, and more reliable & peace of mind compared to the 44 year old Volvo.

[WillieC]

"In any case, to me a Beta engine would likely run much quieter, with better low emission standards, and more reliable & peace of mind compared to the 44 year old Volvo."

Bingo.

If you've got the dough and don't have the tools, skills, shop, patience, and time and suffer from paucity of mental stability to think you can bring a 45 year old engine back to new, find an experienced yard that has installed several of these in the A25 and go have a beer. 35hp minimum. Insist on turnkey and seatrials.

But...if you like puttering around.... NAH! WRITE THE CHECK!

DA, I'm working on the racket. It amazes me how noisy they are when cold, then in about fifteen minutes you don't even notice it. 40 years in construction also helps.

You also need to consider the whole picture. An A25 with a shiny new Beta in it deserves a total restoration. NOW you're talking big money. There were a couple boats at Ladysmith that likely had close to a hunnert thou in 'creature comforts'. If I had that kind of scratch burning a hole in my pocket, well I'd sink it in.... Hard to say. This is our first boat and we love it dearly. I told a local big boat owner where we have been and what kind of conditions we have survived, (thanks to DA), and he complimented the size of my, well you get the picture. You have your work cut out for you! Start by cleaning and painting the bilge, right after you replace all your through-hulls. Take lots of pictures.

[DesertAlbin736]

DA, I'm working on the racket. It amazes me how noisy they are when cold, then in about fifteen minutes you don't even notice it.

Ha! That's 'cuz it's making you go deaf! I noticed that in one of the Beta videos they mentioned that a fair about of engine noise comes from the air intakes, not just exhaust & was addressed with the design of the Beta air intake horn & air filter. Thought that was interesting. The rest has a lot to do with general diesel clatter & vibration transmitted to the hull through the engine mounts.

I told a local big boat owner where we have been and what kind of conditions we have survived, (thanks to DA), and he complimented the size of my, well you get the picture.

Yeah, I can attest to that. Here's WillieC following behind us on a crossing of Georgia Strait between Lund on the mainland and Comox on Vancouver Island. This was a relatively mild day on the Strait. Often is much rougher. This is a screen grab from a video shot with my digital camera. I wish we could post video files but it's a huge file.

WillieC.jpg

You think that was bad, you should have seen how rough it was coming down the west side of San Juan Island & up through Cattle Pass this past summer. With the colliding tide currents it got so rough with 3 foot waves coming from all directions we had to duck into Barlow Bay in the corner of Mackaye Harbor on Lopez Island & wait for the next slack tide. Which by the way we saw an unknown someone's Albin 25 hanging on a mooring there.

To put things in perspective cost wise, just check out the prices on new and used Ranger or Nordic tugs, or practically any new boat of comparable size these days, or for that matter the Albin Tournament Express (TE) boats..

I have always been adventurous and maybe a little crazy to one degree or another. I once sailed my Montgomery 15 sailboat across Chesapeake Bay and another time a year later sailed the same boat out to Catalina Island from Marina Del Rey in Los Angeles, a 30 mile crossing. Years before that during the late 1970s & early 1980s spent weekends jumping out of airplanes, totaling 400 jumps mostly from 10,500 ft above ground and a few times from as high as 14,000 ft and including two jumps out of hot air balloons.

Seen here at left in the brown leather flying hat hanging off the side of a WW2 era vintage Twin Beech aircraft

beechexit.jpg

[nebulatech]

DA, either you're really bad at suicide, or you have the courage of a lion. That's awesome!

Gentlemen, don't be sore with me, but I've decided; I'm going to take the plunge into electric. I spent some time on the phone today with an engineer from Thunderstruck EV. We are going to design a system which is upgradeable into the equivalent of about 50hp, but I'm going to start smaller. Looks like I will be on a 72 volt system, not 48. I believe that my long term strategy will involve some form of genset, so I'm not going pure electric. Eventually this will be more like a diesel electric hybrid.

I'll start a new post when I get started. First I have to sell off the old MD17C and make room.

Thanks again DA and WIllieC for your advice and insight. You've helped me make up my mind, and that is what I was asking for!

[DesertAlbin736]

There is no bigger rush than standing on your head & dropping out of the sky at 200 knots, but I'm too old & fat to do that now. Was never suicidal, never got so much as a sprained ankle.

On electric power, there's sure to be some been there, done that examples out there. Space, weight, range, and expense will be among the biggest issues. You may run into some sticker shock on speed controllers alone. 72V = 12 6V/200 amp-hour conventional lead-acid golf cart batteries wired in series, the least expensive best amp hour capacity option. At 75 lbs each that's 900 lbs of batteries alone. An 8 hp electric motor = 6KW. At 72V that's 83 amp.

[WillieC]

Excellent, Smithers! Keep us posted on your progress. I am close to solving my problems on the 17C. First diesels are a bee-yotch! With any luck I won't have to tear down next winter. We came close to an electric car, but the state subsidy went away. Green and clean electric all depends on how it is made. You can get a bunch of batteries in the extra space freed up by a small electric motor and no fuel tank. Can't wait to hear your tales!

[dkirsop]

Maybe you could rescue an EV battery back from the auto wreckers and go lithium. Lots of punch for 1/2 the price. My Leaf operates at 400V but the pack is made up of many individual cells that can probably be reconfigured to produce a lower voltage. Worth looking into? That Volvo engine plus tranny probably weighs in at 1000lb so the weight may not be a factor once it is removed.

Someone up here was working on an electric A25 project but I have not heard anything about it for a while. I do remember that the motor takes up very little room. Given that electric motors develop full torque at zero rpm you may not need the same horsepower as a diesel. You only need enough torque to spin the prop at max rpm which would be about 1000 rpm.