Which hull form to buy? I am irritated...

[notsowindyyet]

Dear members,

My name is Ralph, 45 years old, from Cologne, germany. had "intensive" boat life on sailings boats and speed boats since I am 5 years old. Now we want to change our boating habits and I step on completely unknown territory: displacement boats. After very intensive research we have decided to join the Albin community. The Albin 25 will be our (hopefully) relaible pal for river cruising, but also "heavy seaworthy use" during long travel around the UK, Denmark, Norway etc.

now here is my "so important" questions which boat to buy. From life-long speed boat experience, every cell of my body says "yes thats what I want" if someone tells me that the newer hull is designed tending more to a semi displacement form making more use of the repowered 40/50/60 hp Albins.

On the other hand some say that the old hull (pure displacement) will also make 8,5 knots burning a lot less fuel. (actually beeing faster in displacement speed)

I was offered a boat with a brand new Nanni4.50 hp diesel "new" hull. and I am offered an "old" version, with a 10 year old Sole 33 engine.
The "old" boat is in a quite good condition with better euqipment. the "newer" boat, has an expensive engine but else needs "some" work done.

price difference is about 4000€ in favour for the smaller engine.

is it worth to pay for the 50hp nanni? is it realistic to calculate with 10-12 knots "in emergency" with the bigger engine?

can anyone here help me out with real life experience? I am not the total relaxed person after all... I like to do thíngs faster sometimes... IF it makes ANY sense...

kindes regards to all!
Ralph

[kerrye]

In my experience, the difference in hulls is negligible and additional horsepower is largely wasted. I have a semi-displacement hull version with 42 hp.

[WillieC]

There is a fellow up in BC who also is not a totally relaxed person who installed a much larger than original engine in his A25. 50 plus HP, he lost me on the numbers and three inch exhaust and turbo. (He has since moved on to a twin engine Bayliner with bowling alley in the bilge.)
I forget how fast he got it going, 15 to 20 kts. or some such ridiculous speed, but soon found the size of the fuel tank became a major issue.

We were fortunate enough to meet him last summer and we discussed replacement engines. His take was that since these boats only "need" 15 or 20 hp to move them through the water, too many folks have undersized their repowers. I think kerrye's set up is just about perfect. We have the original 35 hp Volvo Penta on ours and I wouldn't want a nickel less in a repower.

I also agree with kerrye's assessment on the difference of the hulls. We have the newer, Mark II, hull design, but I can't imagine it ever approaching planing speeds. The only advantage may be that the recurve helps keep the nose down for better sight lines, but I could be dreaming too. They are full displacement, both models.

[DesertAlbin736]

Ralph,

If you've had experience with sailboats, then you've had experience with displacement hulls, unless you were dealing with small racing boats like Melges scows and/or small catamarans or racing dinghies. In the world of Albins if you're after speed then you need to be thinking in terms of an Albin 28 or 31 TE, TE stands for "Tournament Express", and are a whole different animal, more like a go-fast sport fishing boat than slow displacement or semi-displacement trawlers such as the A25.

I'm personally intrigued by a certain Albin center cockpit motorsailer, a model that's very much like an Albin 25, but is a design leaning more toward being a sailboat with motor than being a motorboat with a sail, if you catch my drift. This model is the Albin 82MS, the 82 being a metric designation for 8.2 meter length, which is equivalent to 27 feet. Layout is very similar to the Albin 25, of which you can find many photos online, but has a 907 kg ballasted fin keel and protected skeg hung rudder with 36 HP Volvo midships mounted diesel (unless re-powered otherwise), and tall sail rig. They are extremely rare in North America, but apparently less so in Europe.

Here are a couple YouTube videos about them, both coming from Sweden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QW5eJqrV_wI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3dKxgcezjM

And a photo of what one looks like on land

00x0x_78GlHFqTvzF_1200x900.jpg

[notsowindyyet]

ok...I cannot follow you guys..

here is what I understood:

- the hull differences are negligible
- 15-20 hp is enough but to few
- 35 is minimum - more is better
- more than 50 and 15kts uses a lot of fuel

??

Are you saying, that - for both hulls - most people only get to know the slow boats and cant therefore imagine to make them fast? And that the albin IS capable of going quite fast, but that - due to the hull - is very inefficient.

Well... that sounds to me like: The albin is a great displacementboat for (quite seaworthy) long trips, but if necessary it can go fast with large engine.

Is that a good summary?


by the way - I NEED to trailer it (max.3,5t here incl. trailer) and want to use it on canals with low bridges. thus - no 27 and no rigg for me.

[WillieC]

"- the hull differences are negligible
- 15-20 hp is enough but to few
- 35 is minimum - more is better
- more than 50 and 15kts uses a lot of fuel"

That's about it.

However I wouldn't say that it is capable of going quite fast. 10 kts with the newer hull and perfect conditions and the right set up...maybe. Our fuel tank holds about 20 US gallons. If you want to go fast you need to be looking at the 28s. But those aren't trailerable.

Let's ask...

Who has the biggest engine? (And you need to compare apples to apples. Duty cycle is no small matter.) Sunsetrider got 10 kt plus on his VP 35 horse MD17C. Kerrye has a 42hp, I think. I got 12.8 in the Tacoma Narrows on the right tide, but normally cruise at 6 to 7 kts. with the VP MD17C. The extra power comes in handy when you end up fighting the current, but that doesn't make you go any faster. You just don't go backwards.

I really don't think the A25 is the boat you want if you want to go fast. Maybe something with a gasoline outboard, trim tabs, and planing hull design.

[notsowindyyet]

ok - if you suggest to choose another boat - no - we like the Albin. she is "cute". and she offers a lot of living space for the money and is seaworthy enough for trips along the coast or across the "ocean" - speaking of distances land to land of about 150-200km how you find them a quite a few in europe.
Speaking about the "right tide" - you mean gps speed with the current? I always speak about "speed through water".

[ppaalo]

I have the 1970 old model and an 18hp Perkins from -92. It does maybe 6,5 knots at full throttle and 6,2 (GPS speeds) cruising while consuming about 2 litres/hr. Of course it would be nice to have a possibility to go a bit faster when needed but not possible with this engine.

Price difference sounds a lot since my boat only cost 5000€ total but then again a new engine is a new engine

p.s. if and when you get your Albin, please do post some stories of the longer trips you do! I'm dreaming of but not sure I am (or maybe more so the family) up for it to take it across the Gulf of Bothnia to Sweden or even just to Åland Islands and back to mainland Finland.

[kerrye]

My SIL who has a later model with the original 36hp Volvo said they got their boat up to 15mph on Seneca Lake. I wasn't there so I reserve the right to skepticism. However I was briefly at the helm of that boat and I did think it was a far more sprightly boat that ours. Probably the combination of engine and prop. But if it is true, it does show that additional horsepower may not be necessary to achieve higher speeds.

[notsowindyyet]

guys... you really are getting the numb brain of a foreigner to work hard..

sil...

sister in law?

anyway.... this is al very interesting. but .. IF there is no much difference between the huls performancewise - why has a genius like per bro than adjusted it anyway? or is it only about stability and roll?

[kerrye]

Yes, sister in law. If the early hull rolls more in a beam sea than the later hull, I would definitely buy a later hull. If there's any reason to buy a masted version it's a beam sea.

[notsowindyyet]

I have heard so much about that "roll problem" that I start to worry. we WANT to use the boat for long costal and across cruising - and not only with bft2.
It would be a "desaster" when after all it would only be the roll of this model that would "kill" us. is it really worse than boats of comparable size?

I would go larger without hesitation, if there wasent the trailer weight problem.

[kerrye]

I'm not the one to ask as I have mostly been a sailor and the A25 is a quite different experience for me. I do have a friend who has built anti-roll devices for fishing boats and he assures me that if a person really wanted to stop the rolling he is capable of designing an anti roll system which would take out the roll. I have an acquaintance who took his A25 from Seattle to Alaska. He used to direct the Coast Guard heavy weather rescue school. He assures me there's nothing better in heavy seas than the A25.

[WillieC]

Kerrye! Now that is quite a confirmation! All I know is that the boat is way more qualified than we are, but that is really good to hear from a true expert. Guess we'll continue our cruising in the Salish Sea. (I will still try to pick our conditions, though.)

[notsowindyyet]

in order to get a deeper understanding of hull forms, displacement speeds, semi gliders, roll frequencies, etc etc etc I have searched and found the "bible" of motorcruiser construction - from Juan Baader 1972.
Its hard to find a copy and I got one from amazon - for a ridicolous price.... who cares

It arrived today. and I spent the last 4 hours in speed feeding my brain with 150 (of 450) pages of data, facts, tables and scemes.
(by the way - it enabled me to create a quick excel table with the exact speeds of our 25 and their most economical setups)... which is what most owners allready know from real life experience

Well.. it IS A GREAT BOOK. I do understand now, that the differences in the Albina hull does - at best - influence speed in tens of knods. much more is it a stabilization aspact of trim and roll.

BUT maybe not for the better. interestingly - the more stable a boat is right from its "zero" point, the more it will "flip" in heavier seas. The more it moves around "zero" the softer it rolls in the sea. I heard some peole critizising the "snap-roll" of the 25 in heavy seas. Maybe per bro changed the hull for the "moms and kids" on their sunshine weekends and had to live with the "snap roll" in the heavy seas, the target group of this famile cruiser would in most cases never encounter.!?