A25 Prop shaft replacement

[WillieC]

Now that the WillieC is running perfectly, well close anyway, I have been pondering what else really expensive can we do next that probably isn't necessary.

Aha! The shaft! Elsewhere I have mentioned that Gary, our prop man in Mukilteo, did his best at straightening the original, but could only do so much with our pretzel. Previously, the shaft, prop, motor mount and alignment issues supplied the never ending bass and rhythm section to every hard rock anthem ever recorded. Amplified by the fiberglass hull tower-of-power speakers. (It is much quieter now, but you can still make out some Neil Diamond hits.) A new one made of Unobtainium would run somewhere around $800 bucks, almost as much as one motor mount that Nancy has been inquiring about for her 28. I should complain!

Gary suggested trying to find another source, or maybe a better used shaft. He said Beneteau's still use 30mm shafts and I might be able to find one long enough with the correct metric taper, etc. etc.. This is the old "kneebone connected to the leg bone" story which just keeps building until you see no way through the problem short of buying a brand new Nordic Tug and forget about it.

That helped clarify it for me. $800 now sounds like a bargain.

I'm not sure I need the gold-plated with mother-of- pearl inlay, depleted uranium shaft machined in zero-gravity on the International Space Station. Maybe something closer to the original stainless would suffice. Can anybody suggest a supplier? West coast would be nice. Bremerton ideal. Hmmm...The Nimitz is just sitting there.

[kerrye]

I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that A25 shafts were typically either 1” or 25mm

[Beta Don]

If I was going to go to the expense of a new shaft, it would be one which fits a standard propeller and a standard cutlass bearing - I wouldn't spend $800 and still be stuck with a boat which needs 'special' unobtainium parts on into the future

Don

[Nancy]

>>almost as much as one motor mount that Nancy has been inquiring about for her 28.<<

LOL! No no - the Barry mounts are $800 for *four*! And the R&D mounts are about $125 a pop.

And lol about most of your post - unobtainium and new Nordic Tug indeed!

[Desertboater]

When we repowered with a Beta Marine 25hp, the prop and shaft were also replaced due to the need for a longer shaft and a right hand turning propeller. The shaft was changed to 1 inch, not 25mm, and the Michigan Wheel 3 blade prop was ordered to fit the 1 inch shaft without a spacer. At that time, Albin Marin in Sweden was still offering a cutlass bearing in 1 inch - don't know if they still offer it.

The shop that did all the work on the shaft & prop was:
Independent Marine Propeller
8675 North Crawford Street
PORTLAND, OREGON 97203
independentmarine@comcast.net
Phone Now: 503-286-3552

We drove the 3 hours to Portland to pick up the prop & shaft - they zip tied the shaft to a 2X6 to keep it from getting dinged. I had to open the window in the rear of the pickup cab as the shaft was longer than the 6 3/4 foot bed of my pickup. They were competitive in price and Oregon is a no sales tax state, so it more than paid for the trip. Plus we spent a day in Powell's book store so it was well worth the trip.

[hetek]

To answer Kerrye's question... It's my understanding that 1st generation A25's use the 25mm shaft, while the second gen "DeLuxe" use a 30 mm.

I have a DeLuxe and it measures 30mm.

WillieC... I am also in need of a new 30mm shaft. Mine is too short for my Vetus repower. I'd offer it to you gratis but the logistics might be a problem. I'm on the east coast and there is no telling how straight mine is. I've never had a running A25 so I don't know if it contributes to the cruising "soundtrack" as your's does. It also has a bit of scoring around the cutlass bearing area.

If you find a source, maybe we can get a two for one discount!

[DesertAlbin736]

I have been under the perhaps mistaken impression that A25 shafts were typically either 1” or 25mm

Hetek makes a good point. That said, the only time one is likely to find a 1 inch shaft is in case of a past repower job, which I believe is what we have on our boat. The difference in size between 1 inch and 25 mm is not that much, since 1 inch = 25.4 mm. If my math is correct, 0.4 mm = 0.0157 inch. 1 inch being even that much larger than 25 mm might cause issues with the size cutlass bearing. In any case replacing a left hand drive Volvo with almost any other make of engine would mean switching to a right hand prop, in which case an SAE taper prop would be a lot easier to obtain in the US vs a metric taper.

But if one is switching out a 30 mm metric shaft like for like and sticking with left hand Volvo engine & not needing to replace the propeller then it might not be a problem.

Anyone know exactly what model year and hull # the change from 25 mm to 30 mm shaft took place?

[kerrye]

I need to put a caliper on my shaft. It’s a deluxe.

[Desertboater]

This extract from the Albineers of BC technical document section of their web site may be useful in determining when the prop shaft was increased to 30mm. Probably the increase in engine horsepower for the semi-displacement hull was the driver for the larger shaft diameter.

TRANSMISSIONS FOR ALBIN VOLVO ENGINES
The first production Albin 25 boats were fitted with the Albin AD2I engine with a 25mm propeller shaft. Later boats were fitted with Volvo MD2B or MDII engines which all had type MS transmissions. The Albin 25 de Luxe boat was introduced, starting with a hull number around 1400. This used the MD3B engine and most, but not all, were fitted with the type RB transmission. Around hull number 2350 a switch was made to the MDI 7C engine and these were used until production of the boat ceased. Some used RBs and some MSs in no discemable pattern. Although either type fits either engine, once an engine is installed in a boat the two are not directly interchangeable. The RB is quite a bit shorter than the MS and requires a longer propeller shaft. On the boats in the Alineers of BC Club in 1999, the RB outnumbers the MS by about 3:1.

[WillieC]

Desertboater's summary is very accurate. Others also make very good points. My original question is somewhat rhetorical having already made the bed in which this sleeping dog will lie.

I stuck with rehabbing the "spare" 17C, the MD3B seeming to have more problems. Also the RB tranny was either out of adjustment or on its way out. But I knew it worked, so I planned to simply use the RB transmission on the 17C engine, vastly simplifying the re-connection of cables. Not so fast, cowboy. They use different drive mechanisms to couple with their respective engines, so I had to keep the MS transmission with the 17C engine. And yes, as Desertboater notes, that transmission is about 2" longer than the RB. I used my Mark One eyeball precision measuring gauges and shifted the engine 1.5" forward, since that was about as far as I could comfortably push it without modifying the fiberglass engine pan. Now, however having learned a bit about fiberglass alterations through operator error and my own proclivities toward frugality, I should have made better measurements and just modified the engine pan. While the engine was still sitting in the shop. Ah, well, grasshopper.

So I ended up dancing with the one what brung me. Staying with the original design for the time tested though thoroughly not modern VolvoPenta, I was able to:
1. Re-use the existing 30mm shaft (though I still had to shorten it a bit)
2. Keep my VP shaft split flange (though I ditched the original rubber baby buggy bumper VP shaft saver because it would not bolt up to the MS transmission and went to an R&D flex coupler)
3. Keep the PSS shaft seal which I had serviced and restored to new condition (recommended every 6 years or so)
4. Install a new off-the-shelf cutlass bearing from Albinmotor that bolted right up, no muss, no fuss and no bronze.

Sourcing a new prop was actually quite simple, once I found the right guy who actually listened to what I was trying to do, keeping an old, reliable, boat alive for a few more years. Metric taper? No problem. Custom keyway? Got it handled. The lead time was about eight weeks, closer to ten, but I had my hands full putting it all back together so time was not of the essence.

The shaft shows evidence of prior damage, as noted by Gary my prop person, and the fact that there appear to be raised portions on the surface of the shaft in the area of the cutlass. My first concern was crevice corrosion, but upon closer examination, it looks more like at some point, through years of neglect the cutlass had deteriorated to nothing and the shaft had been damaged by scoring, repaired by built up welding and re-turning the shaft back to 30 mm. The "cracks" I see are actually the ends of the build up welds that weren't quite high enough to be machined out when the shaft was re-turned.
Is that a potential fail point? Absolutely. When? How likely? On this boat, with 36 HP, at this rpm, with its use on inland protected waters? I'll take those chances. For now.

Beta Don's answer, always insight built upon practical experience and sheer wisdom, is absolutely correct. When I determine that the old VP ain't gonna make it, then I get to do the whole knee-bone connected to the leg-bone dance. It all goes away, with a new state of the art of the fart under the arm COMPLETE system. Beta engine, adjustable motor mounts (what a concept), modern alternator and belt system designed for the load, new thrust bearing or aqua-velva drive, new stuffing box (some old things are pretty hard to improve on), new off-the-shelf SAE shaft, rejiggered cutlass bearing carrier so one can hop over to Seamar or Fisheries Supply and actually buy a cutlass today, SAE prop hanging on a hook at West Marine or Fred Meyer's. Oh, and new control cables and engine monitoring gauges and alarms.

All for a cool 15 Large in a 44 year old boat. In the meantime, I think I can live with a little Neil Diamond, keep a good eye on the funky welds on the shaft, try harder at not busting things that aren't and getting out there as much as I can. Nothing beats messing around in boats. I appreciate everybody's input greatly. (I'll still keep my eyes out for a spare shaft though.)

Note to Hetek: Do like Beta Don and Desertboater suggest. Make everything south of the transmission SAE, 'Murrican, off the shelf. A modern 1" diameter shaft and all the goodies that make it fit the boat with a regular, no-shim taper will make your life simpler, if monetarily poorer. Albinmotor does in fact sell a 1" cutlass that will bolt into the Albin carrier. You are half way there. Keep going. Chances are the new engine turns higher rpms and that only makes the racket worse. Your local prop shop will gladly take your money. but do check around. It only took me two years to find my guy.

[hetek]

WillieC - You are my "go to" been there, done that guru!

Advice noted. Thanks! Here are my thoughts...

I do need a new shaft - a given. Too short. The PO had a behemoth Westerbeke 50 hp in it and it looks like he may have even shortened it. My 25 hp Vetus with the Hurth gear doesn't reach.

Speaking of Hurth gear... They don't have a forward and reverse gear, per se. They have "A" and "B" directions. Each one is equally strong and designed for power in either direction. However, they have different ratios. At least mine does. So...

According to Boat Diesel calculators, my Vetus with Hurth turning my current LH metric prop in the "B" (LH) direction with the "B" ratio is spot on. I couldn't ask for better. Just add a longer 30 mm shaft. ...And a new Albinmotor 30mm cutlass bearing. Mine is due.

So here's where your advice and my wallet part ways. "Only" a new 30mm shaft and cutlass bearing or SAE all the way, as you suggest. I'm going to try the shaft/cutlass method but I have absolutely no doubt you are right.

Yeah, I have that kind of luck. I will rethink this though. You are my guru, remember?

[WillieC]

Again. I. Just. Lost. A. Huge. reply to hetek.
Apparently I timed out. This is one feature that really bugs me here at AOG, and I say that with the greatest respect to our Fearless Founder and moderators.

Again. Write your post in Word or whatever doc form your computer uses.
Copy and paste into AOG reply.

Short form to hetek. I support your decision, and cheapness fully. Just don't shoot yourself in the foot. And if you do, don't do that in the boat. Take it outside for heaven's sake.

The main point to all you thinking about installing a shiny new engine, there are lots of ancillary parts that may not be reflected in the budget. Then again, if you have the scratch for shiny new engines in 40 plus year old boats, you have the scratch to let the boat yard figure it all out for you. And budget is a fancy buzzword unrelated to the number of checks left in the book. The rest of us are resigned to cat food cuisine and recycling beer cans and clever re-use of existing parts and pieces.

Carry on hetek. (Have you figured out your control cables yet?)

[hetek]

Ah... I too have been bit by the "time-out" bug. I cussed out loud.

My boat has the two lever chrome binnacle mount Morse controls that are either push or pull, depending how you configure them. "A" and "B" should be no problem.

I do need new cables though...

I'm currently in boating "hibernation" since the A25 is under shrink wrap in the storage yard. Gives me lots of time to think, and you know how dangerous that can be!

[DesertAlbin736]

Ah... I too have been bit by the "time-out" bug. I cussed out loud.

#MeToo! Well, guess I'm not the lone ranger here either. It's happened a few times to me as well. Thought it might be karma trying to tell me my posts were too long winded. Yeah, does get frustrating at times.

[hetek]

Speaking of thinking...

If I take WIllieC's advice and go SAE running gear... Hmmm....

Say I get a 1" shaft instead of a 30mm. Gotta save some money there. And I'm sure that 1" shaft zincs are easier to find than 30 mm ones.

The Albinmotor 1" cutlass bearing might even be cheaper than the 30 mm one. More savings.

And if I get a new coupler (which I'm pretty sure I need) the 1" one might also be less than a 30mm one. Again, even more savings.

But then I'll have to buy a new SAE prop. RH props stateside are not really a dime a dozen but I'm sure they are cheaper than a metric one. At least they are more plentiful stateside. And if I buy a new one local and I find it needs tweaking, prop shops are agreeable to that for free or at least on the cheap.

All these savings might offset the cost of a new prop, or at least put a dent in it. There I go - thinking again!