A 25 repower

[Beta Don]

BTW, I have one possible issue going on with our boat that I need to address. Lately our prop shaft "wobbles" a bit, ie oscillates about 1/2 inch out of round at the packing gland at RPMs over about 2,100 to 2,200 & makes a knocking noise against the shaft log. Need to investigate that, possible some misalignment has crept in at the thrust bearing mounts & some adjustment needed. Our usual cruising speed is 6.5 knots at 2,350 RPM, so right now we're limited to about 6 knots.

Pretty common on any boat which is kept part time sitting on a trailer and part time in the water - The hull actually changes shape a small amount (and sometimes not so small) and that throws off the alignment

Don

[DesertAlbin736]

Pretty common on any boat which is kept part time sitting on a trailer and part time in the water - The hull actually changes shape a small amount (and sometimes not so small) and that throws off the alignment

More like full time on the trailer and part time in the water. Usually only afloat to one or two nights at a time unless on an extended summer cruise. Like this past summer the boat sat on the trailer from early May until late October except for 1 week cruise out to Catalina Island. Although when on the trailer the keel is fully supported by resting on center rollers along most of its length. Looking at Desertboater's pictures, I'm thinking of sliding the stuffing box and the hose that connects it to the end of the shaft log forward some so I can check the alignment between shaft and the AquaDrive thrust bearing mounts. While the boat is out of the water of course. (Duh!) I have a dial indicator that I can set up to check runout on the shaft & see that it's centered within the shaft log like DB did with his Beta repower project.

As seen in this photo, the thrust bearing carrier has rubber isolation mounts that bolt to a steel plate cross member, secured with bolts & lock nuts, that in turn is bolted to the engine bed. Should be some amount of adjustment possible there.

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[Desertboater]

The idea of a group trip is very attractive - I'll put it on our calendar. We have the classic problem of too many demands on our time to be able to commit so far in advance - somehow we thought retirement would be full of spare time but that is not how it is working out.

Next trip you make thru this area, we should meet up. Maybe to continue to the Salish Sea but at the very least to have dinner.

Relative to the shaft wobble - how easy is it to disconnect the velvet drive unit from the transmission? If it is not too bad, you could then verify that it was the shaft and not the engine/transmission that was wobbling. Another quick check is to check the cutlass bearing for looseness. When you next have the boat on the trailer, I believe you grab the prop and try to move the shaft up, down and sideways to see if the bearing is worn. Google checking cutlass bearing wear or something similar.

Since this series of posts is getting long, I'll start a series of new threads on thru-hull, exhaust, etc.

[DesertAlbin736]

The idea of a group trip is very attractive - I'll put it on our calendar. We have the classic problem of too many demands on our time to be able to commit so far in advance - somehow we thought retirement would be full of spare time but that is not how it is working out.

Next trip you make thru this area, we should meet up. Maybe to continue to the Salish Sea but at the very least to have dinner.

Absolutely! Richland would be a great stop on the way, and is at or near where we'd want to stop for our last night on the road, a full day, 300 mile drive before reaching our final destination of Blaine. It's 1,316 miles from our house to Richland via the route we like to take. We have met three other Albin 25 owners already, Rick, aka WillieC from Hood Canal, and Stephen in Ontario, aka Sunsetrider, and Mike Almvig from LaConnor. Not to mention the fellow with his A25 "Flika" whose name now escapes me that we met on the Erie Canal in 2015. February of 2018 will mark 8 years in retirement for me. People ask, 'how do you keep busy and avoid boredom?'. Easy I say, just buy an antique cult classic boat that you can fix up and trailer anywhere you want for extended cruises. That'll keep you busy making a small fortune (having started out with a large fortune). That's why we named ours "La Dolce Vita", "The Sweet Life".

What you're calling "Velvet Drive" is actually AquaDrive brand name. Near as I can tell "Velvet Drive" is a brand of transmission, nothing to do with CV joints or U joints. I'm hoping I don't have to disconnect it, but by sliding the stuffing box & connecting hose foreward I can see whether or not the shaft is centered in the stern tube as your photos showed it should be. If it's off center I should be able to adjust the thrust bearing mount accordingly, then test out on the water by running with the engine box up so I can see what's going on with the CV joint. The cutlass bearing seems OK with no sign of looseness. Something is causing it to oscillate at high RPMs like the shaft was bent, the prop out of balance, or something. I have all winter to figure it out now that the weather is finally cooling off and our fall/winter lake boating season is starting. Even now at 2PM on November 14th it's 86* out, so the inside of the boat is probably at least 95*.

[WillieC]

I get that the prop shaft alignment should be verified in water. I did that last year or was it two years ago, with the old engine and shot mounts that I replaced two of four. The difference between the alignment on the trailer and when in water was minuscule. But I also had the original rubber baby buggy bumper shaft coupler, so I didn't get carried away.

This year, with the new prop, shortened shaft, new cutlass, re-worked PSS shaft seal, AND new Shaft Saver coupling from R&D (and ALL new motor mounts) I went through the whole process again and in the water. Trailer setup was close enough for me. Besides, removing the shaft zinc, loosening the PSS, removing the Shaft Saver, all required to slide the shaft forward to check the alignment, all the while dealing with water leaking past the unloaded PSS...Close enough. I left it alone.

I will say that my prop shaft no longer oscillates like a paint mixer at the north end of the stern tube. I ran it just last week after installing my new fuel lift and raw water pumps and it spins like glass. And I will say that it was horribly aligned before. I removed almost all the shims to get it centered in the stern tube and get it aligned. I am jealous of you new engine guys who have the screw adjusters. Cheaters.

And, my trailer with the four long bunks, not rollers, supports the hull very nicely. I have seen horribly deformed hulls on rollers, but those were not Albin 25s, to be sure.

All this to say, know your boat. Sort it out and all will be well. When I started the engine on the trailer, it took a few more cranks than usual, no doubt due to air in the system. It didn't sound good and I was dreading re-bleeding simply because it makes such a mess no matter how many rags I use. I let go of the key and she kept running, I am guessing on one cylinder, but still turning. I fiddled with the throttle and then a second cylinder started firing and soon all three and she purred right down to idle. It sounds so good I am looking for a weather window just to put her back out even if only for a couple days.

[DesertAlbin736]

After spending a good amount of time over at the boat yesterday checking the prop shaft, here's what I found.

Pulled the stuffing box forward and here's what it looks like. Seems fairly centered to me. How else would one adjust that except with boat being out of the water? It would seem theoretically that the rubber bushing in the cutlass bearing would allow some minor self alignment of the shaft between the prop and the front end as long as the shaft was fairly well centered in the shaft log.

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All shaft alignment is dealt with at the thrust bearing. Allowable misalignment between engine and thrust bearing can be up to 8 degrees side to side and/or up and down. The only adjustments deal with the rubber bushings where the thrust bearing carrier attaches to the mounting frame. And that consists mostly of tightening the bolts to compress the rubber bushings to 15mm clearance between bearing carrier & mounting frame. And those bushings show no signs of deterioration. Otherwise shimming the mounting frame up, down, or sideways. Those bolts holding the bearing carrier go though holes in the mounting frame, and thay are not slots that allow any shifting. So we'll see next time we take the boat out. Otherwise the only other cause of the wobble is likely to be with the cutlass bearing, the most likely suspect being that rubber bushing on the outside of the bronze tube. I have a 1 inch micrometer that I can use to measure the shaft and tell if it's 1 inch or 25mm, and if we're still having this wobble problem will go ahead and order a new cutlass bearing from Albin.

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I looked through all the receipts & documentation that was passed along from previous owners, and found no mention of a new shaft ever being installed. Doesn't mean there was one, but unlikely that such receipts wouldn't be saved along with everything else. From the looks of Frank's old AD21 installation it may be that a new shaft was not necessary. One note of interest was that the Yanmar was installed four years before the AquaDrive was added in 1990, and the receipt for that said the price of the AquaDrive unit was $358. Be nice if those prices were still available. So either a)there was a new shaft for the straight connection to the Yanmar that later had to be shortened, or b) the engine was mounted further aft then moved forward to accommodate the AquaDrive, or c) shaft was replaced a 2nd time when the AquaDrive was added.

Whatever the case, the brochure for the Yanmar claims the 3GM30F engine runs much quieter and less vibration than older generation engines, and the AquaDrive brochure claims a 40% reduction in noise and vibration due to the engine being isolated on soft mounts and being allowed to flex by the CV joint, plus all the propeller thrust being absorbed by the thrust bearing. I believe that, especially after getting a ride on Sunsetrider's boat. The difference in noise and vibration was shocking, as our boat is not much louder at 2,300 RPM than riding in a car, and is virtually vibration free. The prop we run is 16.5 X 12, and stamped "JAX FL".

[DesertAlbin736]

OK, confirmed. Our prop shaft is 1 inch, not 25 mm. 1 inch = 25.4 mm, and conversely 25 mm = 0.984 inch. I miked the shaft, and a micrometer set at 0.984 inch would not fit over the shaft, and the measured size was 1.003 inches. So if I end up needing a new cutless bearing it'l be the 1 inch size.

[WillieC]

OK, reminder this is about A25 repower, which includes all the peripherals, of which no small expense includes the propshaft. Desertboater has a new propshaft if I recall correctly. Getting to the point of determining its length is no small feat. I, in my fiscally conservative sensabilities, elected to not fork out some $800 for a new shaft so I had to make sure I had all the parts and pieces on hand so I could put the engine back in in the correct position. I took a Wild A.. Guess and decided I better move the engine as far forward as I could, and I still had to whack an inch and a half off the old shaft.

Once I had the shaft out and took it to the prop shop for fitting of the new prop, I found out it was pretty banged up. Gary, the prop shop professional extraordinaire, told me that the amount of crookedness of my old propshaft was likely due to some vigorous grounding at some point. He was able to take most of it out, but it is not perfect. Close enough for me, and as I noted earlier, it runs vastly smoother than previously, though with some interesting harmonics. Point is, for Desert Albin, you may need to remove the shaft and have it looked at by a pro. Or live with it. I replaced my cutlass, mainly due to the presence of pink metal, and it is considerably tighter, though with adequate clearance and no binding, but I still get a bit of racket back there that I attribute to my imperfect shaft straightness. Ah well. I do not think the new cutlass made much difference in wobble or noise. A bent shaft is a bent shaft.

Steve, since your Aqua Velvet Jones aligner gives you a fairly wide range for acceptable alignment, can you live with that? I do like the idea of taking it all apart and seeing what gives, though. Knowledge is good for these old boats. Maybe you will find there is a very good reason for that expensive coupler.

In retrospect, and if I weren't so cheap, I would go the route Desertboater has gone. All new everything. But I wouldn't be able to stop. Right now I am dealing with a leaky window seal with a strategically placed waste receptacle. I am doomed to have an old boat. I am comfortable with that.

[DesertAlbin736]

Actually the prop shaft has to be aligned to the thrust bearing just like a conventional direct connection to the tranny. Ahead of that the CV joint takes care of any misalignment between thrust bearing and tranny. Biggest advantage is reducing vibration noise by the thrust bearing allowing the engine to be set on soft rubber mounts & not subject to thrust loads.
I'm hoping the problem is not a bent prop shaft. Next step is to take a dial indicator & check for runout. The cutlass bearing is at least 27 years old, possibly 30, so I wonder if that bushing could be shot & be prudent to replace? May pull it to inspect later this winter then decide if it needs to be replaced.

Looking at that link to the Albin Motor parts catalog (thanks Desertboater for posting it), the 1" cutlass bearing is priced at 1,200 SEK, ie Swedish krona. Sounds like OMG, a huge amount, but at current exchange rate that's $142.42 US. The 25mm bearing is 800 SEK, which at $95 US, so the 1" bearing is 49% more than the 25mm. Neither one is cheap, but on the other hand is not going to break the bank. I may go ahead and order one, so that even if the existing one is OK, would be good to have a spare in case either future prices go up or they end up being discontinued.

[FrankD]

A new Beta 25 is on order
I want to thank Desert Boater for the great info on his swap.
Super pictures too.

[DesertAlbin736]

Awesome! Keep us posted on the installation progress. I know it's still cold up there now but fear not, spring & summer are on the way.

[FrankD]

Long story
Between a heath scare and just generally being busy... things got put off. Finally, the Beta 25 is in.
Probably need a vented loop (cheaper than raised elbow) etc and other finishing touches but it’s in, new prop shaft and it runs beautifully on the hard. Probably won’t see water until next year now.

[WillieC]

That looks very clean. Don't neglect the exhaust issue for too long. Would hate to hear of a water locked new engine.

I see the massive new angle iron bolted to the fiberglass. How is that attached? I have assumed there is steel embedded under the original mounting locations since machine bolts hold the old mounts in. Tell us what you found, please.

[DesertAlbin736]

Purdy! Food for future thought: IF excess vibration & noise were to become an issue, it appears there's enough room, with the shaft shortened, to add an AquaDrive CV/thrust bearing unit. You won't really know until after sea trials, but I know it's helped ours run quieter.
At least with exhaust on port side with early model boat the exhaust hose doesn't have to cross over starboard to port.

[Dieselram94]

Interested to hear if metal is embedded in the fiberglass as well