Another Winterization Question - A25

[stxray]

Hey Guys,
I'm looking to winterize my raw water cooled MD3B engine in my A25 Deluxe. Problem is I can't start and run the engine right now.

Currently, I have the fuel tank removed, the engine room wiring disassembled and batteries removed, and the exhaust system disconnected, as all are a work-in-progress. So, here's what I'm thinking and I wanted to make sure this will work and won't cause any unforeseen consequences.

I've already removed the thermostat and the petcocks and allowed the block to drain. In addition to the hose coming from the raw water pump, the thermostat housing has another hose that runs the length of the exhaust manifold bypassing the manifold where it reconnects to the exhaust outlet.

So, I'm thinking I could disconnect that bypass hose at the thermostat housing, attach a piece of hose and use a funnel to pour in antifreeze until it starts to flow from the opened petcocks. Then close the petcocks and continue pouring antifreeze until it starts to come out of the exhaust outlet.

So here's my questions...
1. Does that sound like a prudent way to do the winterization?
2. Will it get the antifreeze where it needs to go and adequately protect the engine?
3. Is there any way, doing it this way, that I could inadvertently introduce antifreeze into the internal parts or the engine?
4. Do I need to be concerned with the transmission?
5. Is there a better way to do this that doesn't require that I first reassemble everything to start and run the engine?

Any suggestions and/or advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Beta Don]

I honestly don't know whether you could get anti-freeze everywhere you need it to be without running the engine. I would suspect probably not. There's nothing in the transmission you need to worry about

If it was mine and I was in your situation and had the boat at home on a trailer, I would put a 100 watt lightbulb in the engine room and turn it on anytime the temperature is expected to go below freezing. Unless temps go below zero, that small amount of heat would keep any water left in the engine from freezing. If it's predicted to be VERY cold, I would use a small ceramic heater set on low (750 watts) and run that. I actually did this several times in the engine room of our A-27 when we were retrofitting it

Don

[WillieC]

Don describes pretty much exactly what I do on the Puget Sound. Boat winters on trailer in the yard. My MD3B has the RB style transmission, oil only, no worries. The MS style transmission, with seawater cooling, might warrant draining. Easy to do.
I also drain my freshwater tanks, but don't worry too much about the footpumps since I will run a small heater when it gets cold. A few winters ago it got in to the teens (F) and we suffered no damage.
Back in the day we rented an old farmhouse in northern Illinois that we were told by the geezer across the road that we needed to get some straw bales and and stack them against the crawlspace foundation of the bathroom addition to protect the plumbing from freezing. (This was a fancy farmhouse having been converted to indoor plumbing sometime in the fifties.)
Einar, we had been warned by the other neighbors, was a real pain in the ass, so I just laughed him off. Then it got cold. I found the tarpaper rolls in the attic of the garage that had been reused for decades to protect the asbestos siding and channel the water away from the house behind the bales. Also found the pieces of roll roofing for converting the screen door to storm door, complete with tack strips and mostly original nails. Einar became my best friend in the village though separated by some sixty years in age. Now, in my own geezer-age, I own a Swedish boat. Go figure.

[stxray]

Einar became my best friend in the village though separated by some sixty years in age. Now, in my own geezer-age, I own a Swedish boat. Go figure.

I have a hat that says, "Old Guys Rule". Maybe I should change it to "Geezers Rule".

On a similar note, years ago my Dad had a well & pump located in an unheated rear foyer sort of thing. Since it was a real b*@$%h to prime it, he did everything he could to keep it active over the winter without it freezing. He too used the light bulb trick. That sounds like a winner and is easy enough.

One question though, if I do pour the antifreeze into the engine via the thermostat housing would it do any damage? I'm not familiar with the inside of a diesel engine and want to make sure I'm introducing antifreeze into the crankcase or cylinders by doing that without the engine running.

[Beta Don]

I don't see how a diluted 50/50 mix of antifreeze could hurt anything or get into the engine itself if you pour it in the thermostat hole - The sea water is corroding all sorts of things in there (which is why you need to keep fresh zincs in the engine water passages) and the antifreeze might actually slow that down a bit

Don

[WillieC]

How about using the temp sender hole right in the top of the manifold just above the stat? It is smaller but, hey, you've got time!

[stxray]

I was going to use RV/Marine, engine rated antifreeze so, I wasn't going to dilute it. Since I already have it, I figured why not? Might give me a little protection in the event the weather is more than the light bulb can handle.

Where does one find the zinc?. I removed the 3 petcocks (both the receiver and the valve) and they're not there.

Hey, WillC: I see in a post back in August that you were in search of zincs on your MD3B. Did you ever find them?

How about using the temp sender hole right in the top of the manifold just above the stat?

That's a good idea. I'll check it out. Might be easier than messing with that bypass hose/pipe.

[kerrye]

Pouring antifreeze into those places won't get it into the crankcase. You'll be fine.

[WillieC]

Ray, mine has been converted to HX cooling. The zincs I currently have on the engine are only in the heat exchanger. I am now proud owner of three of these vintage engines, cannibalizing two 17Cs to make one, plus the original 3B in the boat. I will look closer at the most recent acquisition, though it has been stripped down to crankcase so the water jacket is laying in pieces, with no evidence of zincs anywhere with one exception. Both of the 17Cs have the newer MS transmission and there appears to be a zinc in a plug on the lower starboard side of the tranny, next to where one of the seawater hoses attaches.
These water jackets are very basic, as you are discovering. There are cylinder drains on each jug below the exhaust manifold. The one behind the starter is the tricky one to access. There is also a drain in the exhaust manifold. There are welch plugs, or casting plugs or freeze plugs, two in each head and I think three in the ex. man. No point in looking for anything in the crankcase or on the port side of the cylinder jugs as there is no water jacket there.
Where might the zincs have been placed on these originally seawater cooled engines is likely to be at any of these drain or access points. Most likely the exhaust manifold, since the cylinder jackets don't leave much depth for a pencil zinc. Best guess is the exhaust manifold drain. See if you can find a brass/bronze plug on the bottom of the ex. man. Mine are actual valves, not plugs. And remember, if you pull a brass plug and it looks like a brass plug with some gook on the inside of it, that is your first clue of a dissolved pencil zinc. I had no idea what I was looking at when I first pulled the plugs out of the heat exchanger. I am certain mine had not been serviced for many years.
Take a close look at the Volvo Penta parts fiche for possible zinc locations.

[hetek]

The Lehman 4D61 manual simply says to open the raw water drain plugs in the heat exchanger and oil cooler and to open the raw water pump cover to let the sea water drain. Done deal. Nothing said about running the engine to winterize.

Me? I would run my engine with a 5 gallon bucket filled with non-toxic antifreeze and let the raw water pump draw from the bucket. 5 gallons through would more than do the trick.

Mercruiser I/O's use the "just drain it" method similar the the Lehman method, above.

Moral of the story: An engine doesn't always have to be running to winterize it. See what your manual suggests.

[Hobbit]

As you are located on Hood Canal freezing temperatures for any length of time are unlikely. Why winterize at all? I there is a cold period throw an old blanket over it and if the cold lasts more than a couple of days put a 25w lightbulb under it.

[WillieC]

Mike, we did see 19 degree days a couple winters ago. But it was only a couple days, so I ran a little heater aimed right at the engine. If the boat were in the Canal, I wouldn't worry about it, but 19 degree air around the trailered hull made me nervous.

[Beta Don]

The Lehman 4D61 manual simply says to open the raw water drain plugs in the heat exchanger and oil cooler and to open the raw water pump cover to let the sea water drain. Done deal. Nothing said about running the engine to winterize.

But the 4D61 is fresh water cooled, so when you've drained out all the raw water from the heat exchangers, what's actually left inside the engine is a 50/50 mix of antifreeze which is safe in cold temps. On a raw water cooled engine where those internal passages don't drain completely I don't *think* you can get 100% of the water out of the engine, which is what prompted this discussion - Can you get guaranteed protection by just pouring anti-freeze into the engine where ever you have access . . . . or is there still raw water in there somewhere which could freeze and crack something?

The 100 watt lightbulb in the engine room is sounding better and better Put it directly under the oil pan and you'll be safe

Don

[hetek]

My bad - Don is right.

I assumed fresh water cooled. I should have reread the first sentence again.

Doh!

[Hobbit]

I had a Doral sitting on a trailer about 600 feet higher and further from the Canal than you so it was colder here.

I put one of those square heaters just for keeping humidity out in the engine hold and plugged it in only when the temperature dropped below freezing.

I had no problems.

Before anything will freeze the engine and area around it must become cold soaked and drop below freezing. In a enclosed area like under the cover on an Albin 25 that takes some time. Even a small amount of heat will keep it warm.

Maybe I am just lazy.

Mike