MD17C in A25

[WillieC]

The heads and exhaust manifold cleaned up and checked out fine at the engine shop where I had them tanked and magnafluxed. The exhaust seats are pitiful (pitted full?). And the ex guides are marginal using the old valves as a measuring stick. New valves (at $150 a pop!) may bring the guides back into spec. I could easily blow $1000 on the heads in raw parts, not counting machine work.

The .010" clearance in the top ring is also not acceptable. I could rering and slap it back together but why? The pistons and cylinders, otherwise, seem to be re-usable. I fooled around with a cheapo inside mic and similarly cheapo digital caliper, guess whose. Cylinders appear to be reasonably non-tapered and piston diameter checks out ok, but that top ring groove is a major concern. Obviously this engine has way more wear than I was told.

So I inquired of our good BC Albineer friends for any leftover 17C parts and came up with another engine that appears to be in much better rebuild shape than mine. With one small exception. One spun rod bearing.
Going to pick up next week, put that top end on my crankcase and see what happens. I asked the seller to have the pistons and cylinders miked at a machine shop and they are practically like new. Hopefully the heads are in like condition.

Stay tuned.

Anybody still reading? I was able to verify clearly yesterday that the offset downward of the currently installed 3B and the 17C transmissions is nearly the same. The only difference is that the MS transmission is about 2" longer than the installed 3B, so I will be modifying the shaft, likely in conjunction with a new prop, since that is an old issue on this boat.

My current quandary is that I want to install new style, easily adjustable motor mounts. The old VP system adjusts alignment by shims and astrological voodoo. So, if you are still reading this, have any of you changed your motor mounts of these ancient VPs and what did you use? Were you able to find any that line up with the glassed in nuts in the stringers? Most I am finding are 4" OC bolt holes, the VP is about 4-1/2". And they need to be pretty low profile. Any pictures and input of your mods would be helpful.

And, since the companion flange on the tranny will move 2" aft, I will need to come up with a more compact shaft saver coupler than the original. What is installed on yours? Mine is 1973 vintage. The later models may have a longer engine pan. I am trying to avoid having to modify the pan.

Thanks for reading.

[kerrye]

I'm still reading but I can't answer any of your questions. Good find on the other engine. I've got some spare old Atomic 4 parts laying around my basement and I'm sure someday I'll run across someone who needs them.

[DesertAlbin736]

Hi Rick! You win the prize for extraordinary efforts on Volvo resurrection diesel mechanics. If it's any consolation, while in Nanaimo & at a boat shop where our friends had to get their raw water pump rebuilt (because the shaft seal failed & was spewing gallons of salt water into their bilge) for their raw water cooled Yanmar 2GM20 at a cost of $670 CDN vs paying over $800 for a new one, we saw a brand new Yanmar 2YM30F sitting in the front showroom, cost $12,000 CDN, which in US dollar equivalent would be $9,400. And that's before installation labor & associated costs.

[WillieC]

Steve, for that kind of scratch I can hack together a 40 plus year old engine with used parts and way overpriced new parts and end up with... a 40 plus year old engine! What are you thinking?

[WillieC]

Still looking for in spec re-usable pistons. Found a better set than mine, but still looking. I am amassing quite a set and may go with the best even though not perfect. Paint it all up real purty then sell it as "completely rebuilt". Sound familiar to anyone?

[WillieC]

Upon closer inspection, I think the recent set of accumulated parts may in fact be serviceable. Only one of the pistons is out of spec and not by much and that, only the top ring. Maybe new rings will check out better, though I doubt it since the wear is not on the sides of the rings.
Bonus! The heads look much better than mine, with all guides still in spec and valves in much better condition. Obviously much fewer hours than mine. Might get away with light grind and cleaning.

Cylinders still have crosshatching from either new or fairly recent re-ring. End gaps of old rings well within spec. No pitting and no ridge, but major pain to disassemble due to rust in jacket. My jackets or jugs are in much better shape having used a heat exchanger. This second POS appears to have used seawater cooling, though no barnacles inside jugs, so maybe not..Just sat too long?

Will be experimenting with electrolytic parts cleaning soon. Will post some pics if I don't destroy something or blow the place up.

Next concern, though minor, is the compression ratio adjustment, adjusted by shims under the jugs. Both engines check out the same with about .010" too much gap between head and top of piston. That is using one .008" shim under the jug. Implied in the Manual and specific in the older MD3B manual is that at least one shim must be installed under the jugs. Which makes sense since it limits the contact area to the size of the shim, rather than the entire surface area of the bottom of the jug, which may not be entirely flat. Same with matching contact area on the crankcase. I might just leave it alone and consider the engine "detuned" but more by design than by my (lack of) expertise. Or I could take the .008" shim out and hope for the best. Feel free to pass my thoughts along to your Swedish great uncle diesel mechanic for comment. I'll wait.

[WillieC]

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you!

Second 17C engine is coming in very favorably. Had my neighbor race engine mechanic check out the parts i am assembling and his opinion that the recently acquired junker parts have many fewer hours than my alleged 2000 hour spare engine that came with the boat. Valves can almost be lapped by hand, but he will resurface in his shop. Since i am meticulously scraping the old block and every removed piece for fresh paint, my timeline is loose.

It appears i will be able to reuse the old valves and guides, showing considerably less wear than the heads in the "spare runner". He opined that I would be smart to pull the pan and check the rod bearings. My hesitance to do so was my thinking that simply pulling the rod caps meant having to buy new bearings. To the tune of $500 for six bearing shells and pan gasket. His thought, which I totally agree with, is that I need to know. It is a whole lot easier doing in the warmth and comfort of the shop next to the woodstove than in the boat. And if they check out, I can simply put them back together, springing only for the cost of a pan gasket. And i get to do a full cleaning of the bottom end, short of yanking the crank and cam. If the bearings look sketchy, now is the time to replace them. What's $500 in the grand scheme? Another factor is that some bearing material showed up in the oil sample I sent to the lab. And that was before I even tried to run this engine. I know that engine oil tests only show trending and that a single snapshot is of use only as a baseline. We shall see.

As soon as I finish off the turkey and pumpkin pie, etc. etc., I will pull the pan and rod caps and see what I have. During my test run, when it was all together and supposedly ready to bolt into the boat, I did check the oil sender with my ohmmeter to at least verify there was enough oil pressure to turn off the light. It came up pretty quickly, too. For those of you wondering out there, the oil pump IS removable without removing the flywheel. Having a junk crankcase sitting there on the floor next to the project makes these investigations possible. The oil pump from the junk engine looks like new, lash and clearance well within factory spec. Only relief spring is a little weak, which I will be replacing. Will pull oil pump on the good crankcase after I get done cleaning and see what it looks like.

That said, removing the oil pump from an engine IN THE BOAT may be another story altogether. With the engine sitting on the shop floor, I have room to swing wrenches, I can see what I am doing, any dropped parts or tools are easily retrieved. I am not standing on my head with my bad hand wedged between the engine box with its oil-soaked fiberglass sound deadening material etching itself into raw flesh and split knuckles while the very air of the bilge turns opaque, then solid blue with the utterings of an unrepentant son of a WWII navy veteran, may he rest in peace.

Once I see the rod bearings, I will be able to assemble a complete parts list. Still reeling from VP prices, but will most likely stay with OEM, and avoid the uncertainty of furren aftermarket parts available from UK. Had no problem ordering some $25 parts that sailed through customs, but ordering several hundred dollars worth may attract unwanted attention.

Soon I will have to decide what to do about the transmission options. Re-using the in-boat RB transmission, which is still functioning, is the far simpler option. I can keep the shaft and all its related parts as is. Still need to deal with the shot metric prop. Swapping to the spare MS style transmission, of which I know nothing and suspect a lot given the condition of spare engine brings a whole pile of extra work. I may stick with old tranny just to see how the refreshed engine turns out. I can always rework everything aft of it later. Not exactly sure how to share the engine oil with the RB. The MS transmission lubrication is independent. This may be another major difference between the MD3B and the MD17C engines. Stay tuned.

[WillieC]

Good thing I pulled the pan and bearing caps. A grain or two of beach sand made its way into the shells and left a nice ring, but more importantly, there is embedded dirty oil also. Add $350, but the oil pump on the Spare, spare engine is in much better shape, even within spec. So now, with the pan removed, I get to do a thorough cleaning of the crankcase. The crank journals are still mirror finish.

While the pan is out, the mechanic suggested brazing a fitting into the low point of the pan sump to which I would attach the vacuum oil extractor for oil changing. Each oil change leaves almost a pint of guck in that low point, using the extractor through the dipstick. Within 40 years you end up with near asphalt in there.

As you know, real estate is tight in this part of the A25 so I will have to take some careful measurements and make sure I can plumb this fitting to an accessible location. Since the MD3B is still in the boat, I have an accurate picture of what will and will not work.

A few questions:
1. Has anyone done this out there in AOG land? Some of these pans actually had a drain plug off to the side but in the A25, I think that would be rendered inaccessible by the forward motor mounts.
2. What material should I use? The pan is cast iron. The mechanic suggested brazing a HD brass elbow with multiple barbs for a hose suitable for engine oils in a hot environment. Williams Oil Filter Co. is our local (Tacoma) go to place for this stuff. First Class people and everything oil, diesel, hydraulic, filters, whatever. My concern is plain brass that low in the boat. How many saltwater flushes can plain brass take before one has a problem? Or should I drill and tap and use steel pipe and fittings? Or is that asking for leaks, since I am an electrician and not a fitter?
3. For vibration's sake, I am thinking of switching to hose fairly quickly but I will also need to keep the clamps accessible for maintenance purposes. Could be tricky given the restricted access. I may have to run hard pipe for a ways, then switch to hose. But these engines shake a mite and the last thing I need is a cracked fitting in the bottom of my oil pan.

I am open to advice and good suggestions. I'll even take bad suggestions if they make me laugh! Thanks!

PS. Took three injector pumps and 4 injectors into H and H diesel Friday. Preliminary assessment was favorable, within budget range. Hoping to get two pumps and all injectors usable. It looks like the injector pump from the MD3B will bolt into the 17C, so after checkout, it will become my spare. Hopefully between the two 17C pumps, they have enough hard parts and will only need to reseal and calibrate. Injectors from both engines are interchangeable, so I took in the known runners, from the 3B (plus a supposed rebuilt one from the DPO). Hoping cleaning and spray pattern adjustment takes care of it. That leaves one more injector pump and about 8 more injectors piling up in the shop.

Cylinders honed up nicely. Paint scraping of crankcase is also progressing. I sure am glad the DPO didn't waste too much degreaser or rust treatment before the last rattle can job. Comes off easy!

[Beta Don]

I very much admire your efforts and tenacity. In the end, you will have a quality rebuild on an old Volvo and that's something to be proud of! Few of us would have undertaken the project, given the cost and availability of old Volvo parts. $150 each for valves and $500 for a set of bearings is just highway robbery! Sadly, they weren't that much cheaper years ago when the engines were in more common usage - Volvo parts have always been ridiculously priced . . . . and hard to find

We spent much of the past 6 months looking at trawlers in the 40' range and we walked away from two pretty nice looking boats with very reasonable prices solely because they were Volvo powered. I could just picture us laid up in some far away port needing some common $100 part that Volvo wanted 5X that amount for . . . . *if* we could even find it

Hopefully your rebuild will give you many hours of reliable service and all your trials and tribulations will be well worth the trouble. And . . . . you're having fun, aren't you?

I added a drain to the aluminum pan on a Yanmar 3GM30F in my old sailboat - I had to raise the engine to install new motor mounts and while it was up, I removed the pan, drilled a hole and epoxied my fitting into the pan using Marine-Tex epoxy. I ran that to a used pump I had laying around and with the flip of a switch, I could do an oil change in ten minutes! If you opt for brazing, pick someone who knows what they are doing for the job - It would be bad if it were to crack and fall off while your engine is running

Don

[WillieC]

Epoxy?! Why didn't I think of that? Years ago, in my former life as an electrician we were responsible for some critical communication facilities which if I say any more I could end up wearing concrete overshoes. The switch rooms were covered by several fire alarm zones that utilized 3/4" copper pipe run back to a central smoke detector in a box with a small fan that sucked air from all the various zones. Working in the switch rooms required an Act of Congress, and this was back before bipartisanship was a four-letter word, and we were introduced to the idea of using epoxy, one part as i recall, but I am old, for all the pipe joints. No, it was two part, but had a cheap mixing nozzle with one syringe. I thought I had died and gone to heaven. I was used to deburring, crocus cloth, paste flux, and using a mapp gas torch for sweating solder into the joints. Which would require a fourteen page Method of Procedure for doing the work. Oh, and a fire watch. EPOXY!? Just paint it on? Stuff the joint together? That's got to be cheating. Of course I had to test it and the joints held better than the pipe. Wow.

But the skeptic survives. Will epoxy hold up to oil and heat and time and neglect and three cylinder vibration? Are you suggesting JB weld, which is actually pretty useful stuff? You are right about finding a skilled brazer. I tend to take for granted that any welder ought to be able to do it, having watched my dad weld everything. Just had to keep him away from wood and nails. But cast iron requires good skills. Epoxy still sounds like cheating, but what a great thought. Thanks, AGAIN, Don.

And, now that I am just about fully recovered from hip replacement surgery, I AM having fun!

[Beta Don]

My aluminum oil pan was fairly thick - At least 1/8th or so where I bored the hole. I used a threaded brass elbow, but I didn't think 1/8th was thick enough to get more than 2 or 3 threads into, so I was worried about just tapping the hole in the pan and screwing it in . . . . and then there's the issue of screwing brass into aluminum - How long would that stand up?

Marine-Tex is more like working with Bondo body filler. It's a thick toothpaste consistency when mixed and you can mold it a bit. They advertise that you can tap it and thread things into it. I know I used it one time to repair the mixing elbow on my Yanmar when it had rotted out and was spewing exhaust and water into the bilge. I put a blob of it over the hole, let it set up a bit and then started the engine to 'cure' it. Think I ran the engine at least 40 or 50 hours before I got a new mixing elbow. It stunk pretty badly at first, but it held up and did the job. I've had a Marine-Tex kit aboard ever since - It solves lots of problems. I 'remolded' a damaged keyway on a car crankshaft with it one time (the oil seal rode over part of that repair) and it was still there when I sold the car many thousands of miles later. Oil and heat are no problem for Marine-Tex

Anyway, for the oil pan, I enlarged the hole so that the brass elbow could be fitted without the different metals touching each other. Smeared some epoxy inside the hole, some more on the threads of the fitting and put the two together - Had to use a block to support the fitting or it would have fallen out of the hole. Pushed the fitting in far enough that it protruded about 3/16ths inside the oil pan. Once the epoxy set up, I cleaned up the mess with a Dremel tool so I would put a second coat on both the inside of the pan and the outside - A little fillet all the way around the fitting. Cleaned that up with the Dremel after it hardened and painted the pan and it looked like it came that way from the factory

I worked in some of those rooms full of fancy electronics we can't talk about in my 20 years in the USAF too . . . . and for several more years as a DOD civilian after I retired - All around the world in some pretty interesting places. You do have to get a bit creative sometimes when you're in TimBukTu and the nearest hardware store is a thousand miles away

I may soon be looking at the hip replacement surgery you mentioned too. For now, my last cortisone shot is holding up pretty well. I've had three of them, the first one about 18 months ago and the last one more than 6 months ago and I'm still pain-free, but I fear surgery isn't far away

Don

[WillieC]

Don.

I like your concern about dissimilar metals, esp. aluminum and brass. Mine is cast iron. Thought of simply threading say using 1/4"NPT fitting, but gooping epoxy on threads doesn't seem like it would do much. Your description of leaving clearance for epoxy to grab, plus providing electrolytic isolation makes good sense. Also simple 1/4" NPT (not NPTF) may need the correct sealant, teflon tape or magic goop or something, to prevent weeping. Remember, I am electrician, not a fitter. Have worked very closely with some great fitters over the years and the magic they could with welded pipe and SLEEVED welded pipe for fuel containment systems in high rise buildings always amazed me. Diesel fuel was the worst as it will weep unless done perfectly, every joint. Electrical conduit? if we didn't have to vacuum out gallons of mud and water for underground installations before pulling wire we figured we must have done something wrong.

All that said, I think drill and tap 1/4 NPT, brass into cast iron, with copious teflon and pipe dope should be plenty sufficient. Also the pan is about 1/4" thick, so I should get plenty of thread. What say you? (As an added bonus, I have a spare pan sitting right next to it if I really botch it.) Brazing brings another whole set of problems. If I were working with an aluminum pan half as thick, you nailed it. Thanks, Don.

[Beta Don]

If you have 1/4 inch to work with, threading the pan and just screwing it in should work fine . . . . and brass into cast iron is no big deal

Brazing cast iron isn't simple to do - Brazing cast iron which has been soaked in oil for 30 years would be a real challenge!

I lived in Washington for several years - Went to high school in Bellevue. Trailered my O'Day 25 from Biloxi to Tacoma right after I got out of the USAF and spent the summer cruising Puget Sound and the San Juans. We used to vacation on the Hood Canal when I was a kid . . . . eons ago

Don

[WillieC]

Cold snap here is affecting interest and progress on the project. Put the heater in the boat a couple nights ago, cabin dropped into the 20s so it was time. Spent most of the day yesterday replacing the stovepipe in the shop. I noticed some metal flake from the original, then poked my finger through it so it was time as well.

Don asked if I was having fun. When it is cold enough and I can sneak parts into the kitchen without the Real Captain noticing, I can still make progress. I was able to clean the pistons well enough with Berryman carb cleaner, but I noticed there was still carbon or something still discoloring the sides of the ring glands. These rings were thoroughly stuck in the pistons upon disassembly so a closer look was warranted. Using the coin loupe it became very clear that there was substantial guck still left in the ring glands even though the pistons are looking pretty good. Careful, careful with a steak knife and old piston ring and a hot cup of coffee and a view to die for, I was able to scrape most of it out. It almost looked like sand particles, but must be carbon. Unlike others on the forum, I don't run my boat in the Desert (Albin). Sorry Steve!

Now if I could only sneak the crankcase into the kitchen.

IMG_0496.JPG

Click on picture to set it aright.

[2manyboats]

I had to replace the oil pan on my 6-71 which had a drain plug, but no way to get a bucket under it.( Oil changes in the old days was much simpler, as long as the bilge pump worked. ) I screwed a braided line into the fitting, long enough to be above the oil level when I hooked the portable pump. I left the hose loose with only a simple rope to keep it from sneeking back into the bilge.

I think brazing a fitting on your oil pan is quite do-able. Even if needs to be on the side,it will get everything except maybe the last drop.