MD17C in A25

[WillieC]

It looks like the old 3B may be on its last legs so I will be looking very closely at swapping it out with the spare 17C that came with the boat.
Any pictures of installed 17C engines showing mounts, couplings, HX, alternator, etc. would be very helpful. The 3B utilizes the old RB style transmission and the 17C has the newer MS transmission which appears to be about two inches longer and may have a lower shaft output than the RB. The RB transmission is still in fine working condition, but is considered the weaker of the two. (Of course, I will have to test run everything to see if I even have a working system.) Space is very tight in the engine pan and the 17C has a double pulley mounted on the flywheel end to boot, which I plan to put to good use, even if I have to modify the front of the engine housing.
Any pictures of how the cables attach would be helpful also. The 17C appears to have a separately operated cold start lever that is integral to the existing 3B throttle control. I don't plan on removing the engine cover at every cold start.
The hull is a 1973 DeLuxe with the sliding engine cover which I didn't consider a luxury until I saw the old hinge cover that requires removing the seat.
Thanks in advance. Rick (WillieC)

[WillieC]

Correction. What I thought was a separately operated cold start lever is actually a STOP ENGINE lever. It pushes the throttle back to off inside the housing regardless of where the throttle is set. The cold start mechanism is automagic just like on the MD3B. something to do with oil pressure and the alignment of the planets. I read that it can soot up the injectors, or some such problem.

[WillieC]

Got my oil samples back earlier this week. MD3B in boat with 6K hours showed "Normal". Wait for it. MD17C in shop showed "Critical". EXACTLY the opposite of what I expected. The running 3B is bubbling into the overflow coolant jug and the 2K hour 17C hasn't run for ten years and its oil looks new!

I, who do not smoke or drink, much, before noon, went out and downed a sixpack and a carton of Lucky Strikes before I emailed the testing lab. "I was surprised by the test results. Is it possible that the samples were switched?" Went out and finished off another sixer and pondered 'why is everybody always picking on me?'

In a matter of minutes, the office manager at the testing lab wrote back saying that yes it is possible. Let me get back to you. Within another few minutes, she confirmed my suspicion. And, in this age of narcissitic bloviation and I'm never wrong mentality, she owned up to it. Just got back from vacation and was trying to clear the decks and grabbed the wrong bottle for the glycol test and sure enough.

So good news and bad news. I still have a two hour boat that is getting closer to a one hour boat. But the spare is looking better all the time. This week I have been blowing the sawdust and cobwebs off the 17C, rebuilding the water pump, changing the oil, cobbling together all the missing pieces stolen for the 3B, cleaning the filter housing and removing about a 1/4" of varnish from the bottom of it. Not a good sign.

I have been in touch with Matt Morehouse for his advice and expertise. If you haven't read any of his stuff, I know he has posted on the Old Marine Engine site. Good guy, and now vintner in Southern Oregon. When I couldn't get a pop out of the 17C, he suggested it was time to pull the injectors and the pump and take them to the pros. I couldn't get a drop of fuel out of the injector lines, before long I had all the lines removed and now I am in over my head. A cry to Mr. Morehouse set me aright. Pull the injectors and pump, etc. (Another very interesting topic for another day.)

The story I got from the previous, previous owner was that he obtained the 17C when he bent a pushrod and thought the 3B was toast and never got around to swapping engines. I get that because the 3B runs SO GOOD! I am fairly new to boating and brand new to diesels and thought, what the hey! Lookit what diesels do! They blow cute little bubbles in the overflow bottle! Oh, and their temperature gauges are 50F off! Well, Golllyyy! I was really hoping that it was air in the system as suggested by BetaDon, I think. I really wanted that scenario. Baaad. My hydroplane builder/race driver/national title champ uncle said to test the oil and find out. Which is where I started this post.

I have said all along that a compression test might provide useful information. Now that I am faced with potentially retirement ending injector bills, I am really interested in whether or not the spare 17C has any poop left in it. The last couple days I have been trying to nail down acquiring a tester and the proper adapter for my 40 year old engines.

Today, I built my own adapter. Tomorrow I pick up a decent 500PSI gauge in Tacoma. Done and done.

Enjoy the pics. As you can see by the skilled craftsmanship wrought by hands with too much time on them, why my former employer never let me do contract work at Boeing. Think of the belt buckles I could have made! On his dime. With Boeing CNC machines. Only during coffee break, of course.

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[DesertAlbin736]

Wow! Now am more interested than ever in popping by on our way home & checking out your efforts in person. Meanwhile there's that guy up near Tulare Beach who has that Trinka 8 dink for sale on Craigslist... Could be the end of the month before we make it back to Bing Town.

[WillieC]

Come on down. Taking a break this week with grandson in tow, but back at it soon.
Picked up gauge Friday. I'll know soon if it works, or what mods it needs.

[WillieC]

FYI we are about 30 minutes from Gig Harbor.

[DesertAlbin736]

Gig Harbor Boat Works is another stop on my list. A new Nisqually 8 ft dink costs nearly the same as the used 1991 Trinka in Tulare Beach. At the rate we're going won't be back to B'ham before the end of the month. Now on Day 38 afloat.

Sitting at anchor in Telegraph Harbour drinking morning coffee and trying to decide where to go next. La Dolce Vita, 'the sweet life'.

[WillieC]

When last we talked I was trying to get a compression test on the spare 17C in the shop. I finally did, but ended up using a cheap noname compression tester that gave me two readings of about 200PSI and the same for the third cylinder, just before the check valve let go. Not working anymore. So it will go back to the supplier, but I got what I needed. Maybe. The little adapter I made worked great. I tried using a good gauge I got from a friend who happens to be a retired mechanical contractor who still has his connections. When I tried it, I realized I was lacking a check valve and a release valve. Not easy parts to find for 600PSIG. (You mechanical engineers tell me where to find this stuff..Air conditioning supply? Help!) therefore I broke down and got a cheap tester expecting a little more than 2 and a half cylinders use.

Fast forward. A BC Albineer friend offered to send me a spare, used, fuel injection pump that was for his now replaced MD3B. Not sure if it would bolt right in (the shop manuals show a model change around this vintage) I thought I would try to get the gummy pump I have working. Slow and steady, diesel on the innards and motor oil on the outards, I finally got the throttle slide loose, the wheels that ride on the cam spinning and the individual pistons to shoot fuel. Real gummed up, but why not try? So today I reinstalled it with the ripped gasket on the engine sitting on the shop floor. I also took a stab at cleaning the original injectors. Hint: use a loupe, magnifying glass, to see the holes and how cruddy the tip is. Light touch on the wire wheel and that was it. I used a little anti-seize on the injector so I could remove them when I tear it down. Hooked up all the lines using the old copper washers and actually succeeded at bleeding it. (I filled the injector pump when it was on the bench.)

The last couple weeks, between grandkids and major birthday celebration for the missus (this party is now going on two summers) I rebuilt the destroyed water pump, cleaned out the barnacle farm in the water cooled transmission, bolted the engine to blocks on the floor, rigged up a cooling barrel, hooked up exhaust.... I had high hopes.

The point of all this exercise was to see if any of the main seals are leaking on the long idle engine. I wasn't too concerned if it didn't run like a top, just enough to see what's what.

And today, I got her running. Enjoy the video if I can load it.

Hmmm, now I have to read how to load a video. Any quick tips? Error msg. the extension is not allowed. I am using a linux system so that may be the problem. I may have to switch computers.

[DesertAlbin736]

Good to hear your work is progressing. Best way to show a video is get a YouTube account and upload it to YouTube, then post the URL link here, which I'll be doing with some of our videos from the cruise when we get home.

[WillieC]

Thank you, Steve, for the good advice about the youtube. I probably won't be posting too many videos so I'll pass on that for now. The video of the first running of the engine made me feel proud as a new papa, then a closer look showed yet another herky, jerky video taken by a rank amateur about a very boring subject. I'll save y'all that torture and post a few progress pics as I go along. (I have learned a few things about removal and installation of the injector pump. Don't drop the little pin! It will go all the way to the oil pan! Ask me how I know, then go get a magnet.)

This pic shows my elaborate testing facility and sophisticated clean room technology. Out of sight, over there on the table saw is where I am trying to get the injector pump freed up. How did all this sawdust get in there?

MD17C almost ready to run.jpg

[WillieC]

Slowly coming to conclusions about the spare MD17C with “only” 2000 hours, allegedly. Using the Armstrong compression tester, both the installed engine (MD3B) and the spare, 17C feel almost identical. Gauge readings indicate under 200 psi, range is supposed to be 284-355. Not close.
After receiving and freeing up the spare injector pump I got from a BCAlbineer friend, I also got it to run the spare engine. Not great, but good enough to know I have something. Now I am fairly certain the lower end of the 17C is in fine fit. Good enough. So now, I start tearing it apart to see what needs what. I used my little homemade compression tester adapter to perform a mini leak down test. I put each cylinder in succession at TDC of compression stroke then put 50PSI of air through my adapter and felt for leakage at intake and exhaust. I had already removed the exhaust manifold. The intakes are individually open to atmosphere. One cylinder wouldn't even let the compressor shut off it leaked so badly, as I expected. See cylinder 2 picture. Mostly exhaust on that cylinder.
Slowly, slowly I am reaching the point of springing for new cylinder kits and complete head redo. Especially since I bugged my very recently retired NEIGHBOR RACECAR ENGINE BUILDER!!!
I caught him this am just before they leave for an extended vacation and told him my world of woe and he educated me more about diesel combustion than I have read anywhere. So many little details that can be skipped over but they all affect performance, power, efficiency and longevity. Yeah, he's my head rebuilder. I'll wait.
Here are some pics and you decide. What would you do? Remember, the spare engine is an upgrade from the 3B and will bolt into the A25, as is. Sort of. And it is free.

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piston wear.JPG

Head 2.JPG

top ring groove wear.JPG

[stxray]

WOW!
WillC, I don't know enough to even ask questions let alone comment. All I can say is, I'm impressed.

I really enjoy and appreciate what you're doing and how you're documenting it. I know how hard it is to do both - fix the problem and document it. The last thing I want to do when I'm up to my elbows in a problem is to stop and take pictures and write up a narrative.

Keep it coming, I'm looking forward to the next installment.

[WillieC]

You nailed it, Ray. Especially when things go wrong. I was hoping for a simple refresh and then laughing all the way to the bank. Now I'm still going to the bank but not in laughing sort of way. We put the boat back in the water last night for one last hurrah for the summer. Grandgirls are coming and it's supposed to hit the 90s. And the boat with the dying engine runs so well! Hard to believe i am going to see a huge transformation, other than the blue smoke, which I guess we have become so used to, this being our first boat. The big reason is reliability and longevity. So yes, I keep telling myself, it is worth it. Screw resale. We are going to enjoy this boat now.

[WillieC]

So now there is a brand new in crate MD17C for $5900 in SoCal. Kill me now. So how well was it put into storage? When was it manufactured? And do I end up with yet another engine that needs a tear down to refresh it? The stories you read of engines hauled from the bottom of Lake Washington and running after draining the cylinders and changing the oil are highly suspect after what I've been through. I am going to spend upwards of 4G to resurrect the old 17C . Or I could spend $5900 and get another Canal Anchor. No returns. No nuttin' honey. Still cheaper than a whole redo. AAACCCKKK!!

[WillieC]

Heads and exhaust manifold went in to be tanked and magnafluxed. I might hear back from them tomorrow.

Removed one of the pistons and found the Mahle casting stamp underneath. Inquired of Mahle NA if these pistons might possible exist in the natural world. No, in fact, they were limited edition, manufactured exclusively for Volvo Penta. With gold filigree and mother-of-pearl inlaid gudgeon pins. The diamonds exquisitely cast into the bottoms of the ring grooves, so as to not be ostentatious, are often overlooked when considering the replacement price of new sleeves and pistons.

And the dying engine still runs like a top.

I plod along.