A25 Purchase Advice

[stxray]

Ok, seems I've got a good lead on an A25 (thanks to 2manyboats). It's a project boat for sure but fits what I'm looking for. Given her age and asking price, here's some question I could sure use some advice on...

1. Survey - Is it worth the cost to have her professionally surveyed? Given her age and asking price, I'm thinking a professional surveyor would identify a long list of age related issues. But, isn't that the definition of a project boat?

2. Testing the Engine - The boat is currently on the hard and the engine has been "winterized". Not sure exactly what that means. Don't know if she was truly winterized or just drained of water and laid to rest for a long winters nap. So, given the situation, how does one best determine the condition of the engine? A serviceable engine vs. a rebuild would certainly effect the boat's value while a re-power could be a deal killer.

3. What don't I know?

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[kerrye]

A compression test is often a useful indicator of the condition of a diesel. Does the seller have a video of the engine starting in the recent past? That might be useful also.

[Jeremyvmd]

If your a serious buyer than the owner should be willing to start the motor...if they aren't, walk away. honestly even if you have to re-winterize the motor when u get it home it's worth starting her up...IMO

Survey is very relative...I didn't get a survey on my small car boat as it's more skiff like and for the price I got it for I knew I was gonna be doing some work, but on the a25 might be worth it just to know if the hull has fatal issues that you might not see yourself...

[Marcy K]

Seems it would be worth the price of a few gallons of pink/purple antifreeze to see if it starts up.

Marcy K
A 34 1986
Paumanok
Cape Cod MA

[DesertAlbin736]

Never hurts to have a survey done, if for no other reason than as a bargaining tool. Especially for such a long distance purchase. Then you could negotiate your price depending on what happens to be found, and if serious issues come up then it was money well spent. Should be easy to find a local qualified surveyor up there in Maine. "Winterizing" may mean as little as running RV antifreeze through the raw water system if it's fresh water cooled and the head and galley plumbing systems. If the engine is raw water cooled then the block has to be thoroughly drained. I hear Maine has two seasons, winter and July? If the engine is fresh water cooled it would be relatively easy to hook up a garden hose to the raw water line to run the engine and not have to drain the block afterwards, just do more antifreeze in the raw water line. But unless it has glow plugs (do Volvo engines have them? I know Yanmar doesn't) it might be difficult to get it started if it's really cold out. Winterizing is something we don't generally have to do in Phoenix because hard freezes are rare. Then again if the boat has already been shrink wrapped for the winter, that's another issue.

Wait a minute... doesn't this boat come with a trailer? If it's on land sitting on the trailer unless the harbors are frozen over it should be possible to launch to launch it and get a check ride. Even if you had to pay for a travel lift launch it might be worth that expense if you're getting a good price.

If the owner was conscientious then he will have detailed maintenance and service records and receipts to show you. Diesels that have been run regularly and kept up with routine maintenance can go for several thousand hours before overhaul. My 1986 Yanmar 3GM30F has over 3000 hours on it and runs like a top and does not smoke.

Don't forget to take into account the age of the boat batteries and the date codes on the trailer tires. You could easily spend $700 or $800 or more just replacing those two items. Also do some research before hand on how much it costs to have cushions redone if they're shot or missing. I bet you're probably already aware it's more than most people think.

One person you could call up or stop to visit on the way up to Maine is Joe DeMers of Sound Marine Diesel. He has done several repower jobs on Albin 25s, and has two of them sitting at his shop in Plainville, CT near Hartford. If nothing else you could pick his brain on Albin 25s. We stopped at his shop on the way to Rhode Island in June, but he wasn't in that day although we did get to talk to his mechanic employee.

http://www.soundmarinediesel.com/

[jvh]

My suggestion: You are likely going to need to get a survey done if you want to buy insurance down the road so might as well do it now.

[Dandy]

I would get a survey for no other reason than to create a checklist of projects that need to be done (or not).

[kerrye]

I'd say a survey depends on your ability to assess the condition of the boat. If you're comfortable with your abilities, I'd say use your own judgement. Depending on who you insure with, a survey may not be required. I have a couple of boats insured with Allstate and no survey was ever requested. It also depends on the price of the boat and your willingness to take risks.

[DesertAlbin736]

My suggestion: You are likely going to need to get a survey done if you want to buy insurance down the road so might as well do it now.

In addition to that, some marinas require recent surveys for older boats to get a full time slip, other than transient guest slips.

When we had our 1989 sailboat in a slip in Chula Vista, CA on San Diego Bay for the summer of 2008 and again in 2012 their rule was that boats over 20 years old needed to show a recent survey. By 2012 our boat was 23 years old, but was obviously in such good condition and just 3 years beyond the 20 year age limit as well as the fact that we had been previous good tenants we were able to talk them out of getting one done, which would have been a $300 to $500 added expense. I doubt we could get away with that now with a 45 year old boat.

Also, BoatUS requires proof of a recent survey for insurance. We were able to get around that by going with SAFECO/Liberty Mutual which did not require a survey, but the premiums are higher than BoatUS. We get towing coverage through BoatUS membership.

[Jeremyvmd]

I have boat us on my Albin and on my seagull neither required a survey, but that might be because they are a 98 and a 99

[DesertAlbin736]

I have boat us on my Albin and on my seagull neither required a survey, but that might be because they are a 98 and a 99

That may be. We had BoatUS insurance on our '89 Catalina 25 from 2008 to 2013 and never had to show a survey. Don't know if it has to do with the age of the boat with the Albin, ours being 45 years old, or if it's just some new requirement. In any case we would have had to get one, and there aren't many marine surveyors around in Phoenix and they run about $500 for the one guy I know of.

[glk34]

Are we still talking about a $6000 A25? It would be worth that much even if it didn't have an engine. Just how bad is the interior I wonder.

Chris
"Iron Jack"

[kerrye]

A recent Ebay auction seems to show that an engineless A25 is worth $3300.

[stxray]

Are we still talking about a $6000 A25? It would be worth that much even if it didn't have an engine. Just how bad is the interior I wonder.

Chris
"Iron Jack"

Yep, same boat but the asking price isn't $6K, it's $10K. Looking at the pictures, it's not a total wreck but it will need a lot more than just some TLC. Floors look rough, exposed plywood, icebox is missing, cabin doors are rotted through. Looks like most everything is original and suffering from a lot of hard use with little or no update, renewal or maintenance. Given how hard the interior looks, makes me worried about the engine. The owner says the trailer is road-worthy but, I'll have to check the tire dates and see how old they are. If a new set of wheels are needed, I'm figuring $500 to $600 budget installed. The engine is the original 3-banger so, a lot hinges on that. From my perspective, a no-start or non-running engine is a dead engine. Maybe I could get lucky and find it could be brought back to life but I would have to assume the worst and assume a re-power will be a necessity and treat it as a motorless boat.

I'm also looking at another A25/Trailer. This one has an asking price of $13.5K but it does have a recently installed (2006) Beta engine. Interior has been recently painted (I'm wondering why), No cushions and a trailer that the broker says is far from road worthy. It's been used to winter-store the boat and move it from yard to dock. I'm estimating $1,500 to $2,500 to restore the trailer. A new set of tires would be the absolute minimum. The bearings would have to be serviced but probably replaced. And the brakes (if it even has them) would need major attention. This boat also has NO cushions. Broker say owner left the hatch open and they all got ruined (I'm connect this with the recent interior paint job and wondering what the true/complete store is). I spoke with a local cushion shop (Thanks DesertAlbin736 for that suggestion) and he said to budget $300 to $400 a cushion. Using that I come up with $3K budget for a full set replacement.

As to the survey, based on the comments here, I'm thinking it would be prudent to have one done but, after a through examination by me and an accepted offer contingent on a "satisfactory" survey. What will constitute "Satisfactory" would have to be negotiated.

So what do you think? Am I on the right track?

[stxray]

Hey Guys,
In my earlier post I mentioned that one of the boats I'm considering has the original three cylinder diesel engine or, at least that was my impression. However, as I learn more about the A25 I see that most of the information mentions only two cylinders power plants.

Now I'm confused Did the A25 even come with three cylinder engine? Can anyone tell me which engine I'm most likely to find so I can make sure I'm researching the right one?

Thanks to all for you comments.