Handrails leaking

[Sprig1]

My quest for a leak free boat continues. I have gone this far port lights, cabin pilot house joint, rub rail,cockpit sole, swim platform. I am wondering should I take off the handrails and bed them. I have to rip out the headliner to get to them. Any thoughts has anyone else done this. I already have the headliner out around the edges because the the board that holds it up is rotted in a few places. If I didn't have to work this would be a fun project. Thanks all for the help. Sorry about all the questions. Chris

[Mark Deeser]

Chris I guess it depends on how serious your quest is. One thing for sure is it's a job you would want to do well, sure would not want to remove headliner more than once. If you go ahead with this project, please post some pictures and a description of the job. Might inspire some of us to tackle a job that needs done. Thanks, Mark.

[JT48348]

My guess is if you remove the headliner you will find extensive leaks in a variety of other locations you didn't know existed. The good news is you can then fix them all.

If you don't remove the headliner, you will never know.

I would wager you have lots of leaks. You just don't know it. And even if you have just this one leak you probably have extensive mold behind the liner. You might solve the one leak but you will have no confidence that another won't appear when you least expect it.

From my experience there are several things the builders did that weren't smart. The leaking windows, half glassed fwd cabin and headliner are issues every Albin 27 owner will face one day. It's a matter of time.

This is a big job that you should not avoid. It sucks. I posted pics under the Beckson Ports thread. I think some details from other headliner jobs are also referenced there.

[smacksman]

My 2c.
A boat moves and so joints will work.
Every nut, bolt, screw on a boat must be accessable. Covering them up with glued on material is the cheap, short term cop-out by boat builders.
Headlining material should be glued to thin ply panels, screwed with cup washers or chrome caps to battens bonded to the deck head.
It is the old method but it allows access to fastenings and cables.

[rnummi]

Chris/Don/Vic et al. Im chasing Chris down and approaching this as well.... Did I read correctly that you could pull the plugs, unbolt the aft handrails from above? Not worried about reinstall as I plan on leaving them off and filling w epoxy.

[rnummi]

Chris, I guarantee your getting leaks from two forward screws on both sides. The handrails aren't bedded either. I think my pour into the P and Stbd bulkheads cured it. I know this w certainty as it rained epoxy onto cabin overhead liner when it reached the level of the handhold screws. Stopped when it gelled.

[JT48348]

Where are these screws? What are you referring to. We need a picture.

I have all my hand rails off. In order to get them off you need to remove the liner in most places. They may or may not have been caulked and if so poorly

If I recall, aft handrails are thru bolted from top down. But backing nuts were sealed in fiberglass on cabin ceiling. You have to remove the liner, grind the glass, grind off the nuts to pull these handrails. You have to drill the plugs in the handrail and try and remove Philips head bolts. Many were seized. Some bent on install making removal impossible. Cut from below with a grinder or multitool.

The forward cabin I think were bolted from the top down. Same procedure. I'm guessing factory thinking was if we glass the interior no water will leak through uncaulked mounting holes. This is never the way to properly install deck fittings.

Handrails on pilothouse were bolted bottom up. The nuts are in the handrail.

[rnummi]

My bad... It's the pilothouse exterior sides. The two forward legs of the handhold are evidently bolted from inside cabin/liner to the front two legs. The remaining legs of the hand holds are accessible from inside pilothouse. Let me see if I can find an interior shot

[rnummi]

Just a theoretical question: Theoretically...."Could" you access the glassed in bolts from the side of the headliner? i.e. leaving the top in place and pulling out the sides.... could you squeeze a multi tool in there? I reaaaallllllyyyy don't want pull down the headliner. Sides, OK, I get that... I can pull those and remount all day long. Second question: Do you recall if the bolts were inside cabin facing out or outside cabin going in? i.e., where was the nut.

[Sprig1]

Just getting ready to pull mine off. Will let you know. Got my wife's car fixed so I can start some other projects.

[rnummi]

Go team go....havent been able to work on boat for a week... as you pointed out earlier, if we didn't have to work, this would be a lot of fun. Found a covered slip at the local Marina so my angst over deck leaks has abated somewhat. Trying to get everything below the waterline shipshape.

[JT48348]

Idk what you may find under your headliner. But here's what I found.

I removed my headliner after much effort and sticking myself with leftover rusted staples. Then I said: "Self, where are the backing nuts for the handrails, the deck fittings, etc. why is there only bare fiberglass under the headliner----and not fittings or nuts or bolts to be seen?"

The answer: they were glassed over. They did a nice job. That is if you never want to re-bed anything or remove it. I think this was done during the build as it seems uniform and intentional.

I had to use a grinder to get through the glass and get at the nuts. I tried a chisel. A drummel. A sander. The solution is a 4" angle grinder with a 40-60grit flapper disc. It will get you through the glass like butter but it vaporizes the glass so you must have a respirator (not a surgical mask). Once through the glass you might be able to unbolt things. But in many cases most fittings were seized so I had to use a cut off disc on the grinder and grind the bolts off. Go slow it will get red hot and may fire up. You absolutely need protective gear, mask gloves long clothes, face shield or goggles. I very nearly hurt myself several times.

It's exhausting and I found it to be a nightmare.

[rnummi]

So.... Would it be fair to say that just lopping off the handrails at deck level w a fine tooth multi tool shifting the whole thing forward 1/2 inch to maintain cover over the old sheared bolts and rebedding into newly drilled holes and backing plates would possibly work? I'm guessing you could seal over the old bolts within layer of epoxy to end the leaks ....

Just a thought for those that have already walked down the road.

[JT48348]

This is an interesting idea, I'll give you that. I actually thought briefly about this. But here's the issues:

1) this assumes that you could just move the handrail or deck fitting or you'd want to. I could see there being a situation where u don't want to or can't because of optimal location.

2) I think the idea of fiberglassing over hardware ir fittings makes no sense. You want to be able to remove fittings or at least see the hardware to check for and monitor leaks. I could see having a leaky fitting, causing core delamination, or "brown weeping" when water drips through fiberglass or coring and ur drops look brown.

3) the fittings on the A27 do not appear to be properly bedded or have proper backing plates. What plates are there are small. Some non existent like hand rails which may only have undersized fender washers. There are entire sections of the boat not fiberglassed properly. So the absence of proper backing plates is an issue to me.

4) assuming you could use a multi-tool to cut off the hand rail flush at the deck a) you'd damage the handrail or hardware trying to get the blade in between the two surfaces b) you'd have a bear of a time cutting thru stainless hardware (I'd be surprised if u could even do this reasonably) c) you'd then have to patch the outer deck and hope you got the stainless bolts close enough to be able to epoxy and fill then sand flush to a degree that it wasn't cosmetically visible.


On the other hand if you pull the headliner and grind to get access you can fix it all once proper. You can re-do your headliner anyway you want. It's a ton of work but just makes sense.

[rnummi]

JT as usual, you are spot on. I'm just exploring the angles.

Answer: You are right.... except, what if, hypothetically, option A: you wanted to get rid of the aft handholds on top of aft compartment. or alternatively, Option B: just moving them 1/2 inch forward (by drilling a new hole, filling w epoxy annulus, placing a new SS bolt 1/2 inch forward of the old sawn off one), bedding w new backing plate) replacing the handrail on new bolt. The 1/2 relocation covers 90% of the old location. My only "leakers" are the forward deck handholds and the stern cabin top handholds.

2) fiberglassing over hardware: Absolutely never. The new holes for the handrails would have proper backing plates below and butyl bedding on top. The only "epoxy" would be a very small seal around/over the cut off old bolts. This would in turn be covered by the re-located properly bedded/backed handrail(s).

3) The old handrails (now in their new 1/2 inch forward location) would be properly bedded, backed and sealed.

My actual druthers would be to just get rid of them, ergo no leaks. Unfortunately, I would have as you pointed out, the old sawn off bolt stubs still in place. Ergo, I have to put the handrails back to cover the flush sawn SS bolts. That being said... what if I just put a piece of flat 1/4" x 2 teak down as base down the entire length of the handrails?

4) This whole conversation makes me realize, I just need to pull the headliner and be done with it. As I said, mentally surfing the options on a rainy day.