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Replacement for 4D61

Albin's "power cruisers"
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JT48348
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by JT48348 »

And the list keeps growing :)
I'd use a single alum outboard engine bracket. Reinforce the transom with a backing plate as wide as possible and reinforce the transom to the sides and bottom via knees. Swim platform split in half and on either side of the outboard. High thrust 25-30hp.
arm1_h11.jpg
Here's some photos of a Hardy 21. They make Hardy 17, 21, and 25s. Most are outboard driven. Some with very large engines.
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by don123 »

There are all kinds of boats powered by outboards - What they all have in common is the hulls and transoms were designed by engineers to withstand the stress of all of the forces (weight, thrust, vibration and high speed groundings) outboard power places on the transom of the boat. I would advise consulting a marine engineer of your plans . . . . probably a requirement anyway if you ever plan on insuring your boat

Yes, you can bolt some serious outboard power on a properly engineered boat - How about FIVE 350's?? :lol:

Don
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by JT48348 »

don123 wrote:I would advise consulting a marine engineer of your plans . . . . probably a requirement anyway if you ever plan on insuring your boat
Reason #9 not to put an outboard on an A27. :lol:
don123 wrote:*IF* a Honda 40 four stroke could get you to hull speed at 1/2 throttle, you'd be burning 2 GPH . . . . but I'm not all that certain that 1/2 throttle would get you to hull speed with such a small engine
A) Are you claiming a modern Honda 40hp four stroke is going to burn to 2 gallons at 1/2 throttle??
B) Are you saying you can't get an A27 to hull speed at 1/2 throttle on a Honda 40hp?? (FYI they don't make a high thrust Honda 40 so I'm not sure why you brought this up. But I figure its more apples and oranges.)

There are real world A27 owners approaching hull speed with much less than that. I'm currently counting three owners with kickers and real world experiences. By my calculations, it will take about 12-15hp to push the boat at hull speed (6.5 knots).I've found other displacement and semi displacement trawlers with similar keel forms and approximate weights that run an outboard and get no where near what you are talking about. There is discussion on other forums about this and you are in the minority. You would be better off sticking with the arguments that are a reality: fuel consumption and engine accessories.

I think you're trolling.
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by don123 »

JT48348 wrote:A) Are you claiming a modern Honda 40hp four stroke is going to burn to 2 gallons at 1/2 throttle??
Honda claims their latest and greatest fuel injected 40 HP 4 stroke burns 4 GPH when outputting 40 HP . . . . 1/2 throttle (assuming it's making 20 HP) would be no better than 2 GPH. A diesel making 20 HP would be 1 GPH. It seems pretty reasonable to assume gasoline fuel use will be about double what an inboard diesel would use
B) Are you saying you can't get an A27 to hull speed at 1/2 throttle on a Honda 40hp??
No, I'm saying I don't know. As you said, you'd need a 'workboat' engine (lower gearing) and prop (high thrust) for this application, so until somebody does it in the real world . . . . running in a chop or against a current or headwind, we really don't know if 1/2 throttle (2 GPH) would get you hull speed or not

You're going to be breaking new ground when you repower with an outboard - The actual results will be of interest to many of us

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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by JT48348 »

CaptVic; I don’t know if you are interested in this, but since you asked about an outboard repower I thought I would share it with you. I’m sure many people will disagree with it, but I found it interesting and it gave me a lot to think about.

One of the things I have been personally debating is whether I will ever get the value out of a diesel repower. I’d like a smallish diesel so I can sip fuel, heat my water, heat my cabin, and charge my massive battery bank. But I don’t want to pay $14k for a diesel. I often think about what’s the top value of an A27 in the best-est condition with the best repower. And what’s the low end value for an A27, with a poor motor, or no motor. What did I pay for may boat. And how does a $14k repower fit into the equation when it comes time to sell. I think it’s possible to have a great boat, with a great repower, but never recoup my expense.
30 days on the water.jpg
This led me to think about the “break even point” of an outboard vs. diesel repower. Basically, if I had two A27 boats: one outboard repower and one diesel repower, the repower would cost two different amounts. If you compared the two, there would be money left on the table. The diesel costs more than the outboard. But the gas outboard is less fuel efficient, and every time I use the outboard boat, I’d be taking money off the table. I wondered at what point would there be no more money on the table. How long would that be, and how does it match up to how I might conceivably use my boat in the coming years?

Now I will admit this is comparing apples to oranges as the two engines are not the same, and one will outperform the other. But the point is to just see some numbers and see the ratio of how the various factors relate. My numbers may be over or under exaggerated. My terms may be incorrect. Heck my formulas may not even be correct. But I have the excel file if anyone is interested and you can pm me for a copy. It’s very interesting to play with the numbers and see how things change as you mess with the variables. Something’s don’t impact the whole scheme as much as you think. Some are real show stoppers.
40 days on the water.jpg
I kept a few things constant in my chart. I decided I will cruise at 6.5 knots. Fuel price is set. Cost of the repowers is set. Distance is set at 1,800; 2,000; and 4,000 miles. I chose 1,800 cause its 30 days on the water motoring 8 hours a day. I chose 4,000 miles because it’s basically the Great Loop trip. As reference points these distances/days usage allowed me to conceptualize how I might actually use the boat in various stages of retirement. I might retire and the first year take a summer shake down trip cruising just 30 days. That might be my routine for years to come. Or I might right out the gate set off on a 4,000 mile looper…
67 days on the water.jpg
What this tells me is that if I plan to cruise a lot consistently every year, or one giant trip up front in excess of 4,000 miles, it makes sense to get a diesel. Maybe somewhere around 5k+ miles I will break even with the diesel. Perhaps if I’m going to be cruising a limited number of days per year, it will take me years to recognize the diesels fuel consumption advantage. The reality is I might no longer own the boat by the time I reach that point. On the other hand, some A27 owners have cruised 30k miles in the lifetime of their boat, thousands of miles in one year. I have to ask myself if it’s really likely for me.

In these charts, fuel consumption is the key factor. I think its unlikely that the right outboard will get 4gph, much closer to 1-2gph. I think its also unlikley that diesel will run at .3gph, and more likely .75gph.
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

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A very well thought out comparison - Kinda wish I'd read it before I began my repower :wink:
JT48348 wrote:how does a $14k repower fit into the equation when it comes time to sell. I think it’s possible to have a great boat, with a great repower, but never recoup my expense
Exactly! My thoughts have always been that there is very likely no recouping even half of what a repower costs when you go to sell it, so you'd better be sure this is your long-term boat because you need to 'use up' the costs . . . . which is pretty much what your computations show

A couple of tweaks to your figures. A loop transit is closer to 5K or 5500 miles, even longer if you take any side trips, go through parts of Canada or if you do any cruising in the Bahamas as part of your loop like we plan to do - I'd suggest using 6K miles instead of 4K. Second, if you use Active Captain to check fuel prices at marinas along the loop route, diesel is almost always cheaper than gas. Seems contradictory since gas is about $1 cheaper than diesel at most truck stops but at marinas, diesel is usually cheaper by about 50 cents and it's also easier to find

A good, logical look at a proposed major expenditure for an older boat - Obviously lots of thought went into it . . . . kudos to you!

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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by JT48348 »

Yamaha 25hp high thrust engine, electric start and tilt/trim...........$4,000
Remote controls.........................................................................$400
Blower........................................................................................$200
Engine mount bracket................................................................$1000

You use the original 70gal gas tank. Maybe original mechanical steering cables.
The weight of this engine is 203lbs. Surely the transom can be reinforced to support that weight. Get the biggest elephant ear prop available. Chop the swim platform in half.

In the engine compartment I might install a hottub. LOL

Seriously, here's a question you can help with: how would I recharge my 400-600a battery bank without a high output alternator?
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

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JT48348 wrote:Seriously, here's a question you can help with: how would I recharge my 400-600a battery bank without a high output alternator?
:wink: My very first sailboat was an O'Day 25 with an electric start 10 HP outboard and I had a pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries (200 ah) for power - I removed the recoil starter and installed a standard car alternator direct coupled to the engine shaft. It stuck out the top of the cowling several inches and I had a PVC 45 elbow which covered it and scooped in a little cooling air. I got an honest 30 amps from it at full throttle . . . . and I needed full throttle to achieve hull speed. 30 amps is ~400 watts which took away about 1/2 horsepower right off the top. I have 4 golf cart batteries in two banks (400 ah) on my A27 with an 80 amp alternator on the diesel

The Yamaha 25 High Thrust is a carbureted engine, which is probably not the best choice in outboards for reliability and fuel economy, especially if you run it on ethanol gas. I think you'd be much happier with their EFI 50 HP High Thrust. I believe a 25 would have to work pretty hard to achieve hull speed in any sort of adverse conditions. The 50 comes with a 17 amp alternator which would probably give you 150 amps or so on a 10 hour run. You could supplement that with a small genset for additional battery power if needed. I have a little Honda 2000i which runs 7 or 8 hours on a gallon of gas. The genset would power a 100 amp charger, so 2 or 3 hours would pretty much fill you up

As to reinforcing the transom - It's not so much about the engine weight as it is the vibration and stresses the thrust will put on the transom. I have an 800 pound 16' Carolina skiff rated for a max 30 HP engine and the entire transom, side to side and top to bottom is 1 1/2 inches thick - More than double that of the 6,000 pound Albin. I don't mean to say that you can't properly reinforce the transom on your boat to handle an outboard, but it won't be a simple or easy project and if you ever break it, you're sunk, literally

Also - Consider the resale value of the boat with an underpowered outboard compared to the stock 61 HP diesel. You would really limit the number of buyers willing to buy the boat at any price and the eventual sale price would be much lower. Not everyone is going to think an A27 with an outboard is what they're looking for

All that aside, I hope you do it! I love unusual projects and I have no doubt you can pull this off . . . . don't let naysayers like me put you off what will be great project

The hot tub sounds like a great idea though! :lol:

Don
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

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Some further updates for anyone interested in the outboard idea:

I was able to personally make contact with one of the BC Albineers who ran a kicker on his Albin 25. According to him, he mounted a modern 9.9 Yamaha high thrust (117lbs) on the transom in a split swim platform configuration using an Adventure Marine kicker bracket. He bolted it directly to the hull, using only a metal backing plate. He configured the outboard to run remotely via a troll-ez steering rig. His engine had power tilt and trim & start. According to him he got 9 knots from his 35hp diesel. He got 7 knots using the 9.9 yamaha kicker. He thought his fuel consumption ran 1 - 1.5 gallon per hour with the outboard. :D Based off his experiences, he thought the idea of using a outboard as a primary was not a bad one. He questioned whether a 25hp would even be necessary, feeling 15hp would be just right. Unfortunately they don't make a 15hp high thrust. The 25hp puts out 13amps, and can swing a 14" prop and weights 203 lbs.

Although Don and I spar back and forth flogging the same horse, I want to respond to some of the larger arguments. His arguments are an excellent devils advocate. I think some of the arguments against the outboard are better than others which is why I haven't pulled the trigger yet.

Re: the Transom strength.Comparing the A25 to the A27 makes me think its not a problem to mount a 25hp on the transom. Clearly it would provide more power than the 9.9hp. Yes it weighs more, but trasom supports 2-3 adults or a dingy on the swim platfrom as is, much more than 203lbs. The forces of pushing the boat at displacement speed just does not seem the same as a skiff going 20mph on plane.

For arguments sake, is the fear that the transom would somehow fail? If it did what would that look like? Perhaps crushing of the transom core or cracking of the fiberglass sheathing. You'd see spider cracks around the mount points? Or maybe the motor mount would break free from the boat transom and rip a gaping hole? Remember this is 6.5 knots we're cruising at. This is a function of distributing a load over an area, perhaps improving the core at the mount points, amply solved by a backing plate & reinforcement of some sort. The backing plate has to be bigger than the motor mount points, and the motor mount has to dispurse the weight over an area on the transom, so it might be mitigated by a mount design. Is the fear that the transom would separate from the hull sides? I could see this at planning speeds breaking through chop I suppose. But at 6.5 knots, you'd more likely see flex between the transom and hull sides if anything. But there's rigidity from the liner too. Knees fiberglassed into the sides would help this, if even necessary, as I have seen it done on other boats.

Re: the Resale argument. I hear this argument alot. IMO When someone uses this argument, what they are really saying is "I wouldn't buy that boat." But that has no effect on the actual re-sale ability of the boat. For example, I wouldn't buy an A27 with a repowered 100hp Yanmar. I couldnt afford it at what you'd have to ask. That doesn't mean your boat will be less likely to sell--lots of people want a repowered A27. Me personally, I cant afford it. You have affected your re-sale ability the same as I will. Which is to say, someone will buy your boat. Just not me.

That resale argument never had much value to me. In so far as being concerned that someone won't "like my boat" or "want what I have" I never put much stock. I want what I want. You want want what you want. God knows I don't buy boats to make money. And no matter how much I fool myself not one of my boats ever turned out to be an actual investment--financially. I don't want to loose my shirt owning a boat. Which means I probably sell it for what I paid, or maybe a little more if I made a significant improvement.

To me if someone wants an Albin 27, there's not 500 of them for sale at any one time, because there were approx 500 max ever made. This is a very niche boat serving a very particular customer. They're not buying an Albin 25/27 for the sake of the Albin name so much as what it is and is capable of. There's really nothing like it. If you want a purist A27, there's like 3-4 at any one time depending on the season--and thats nationwide. Generally speaking, they are all exactly the same, just better stages of TLC. Not a single A27 that I could find in the past year has been offered with an upgraded, repowered diesel figured proportionally into the price. A25's are very similar. Alot of A25/A27's aren't even offered with a trailer. The truth of the matter is A27's are selling for somewhere between $10k to $18k, with most being listed at $22-28k---but no one is actually paying that price. Take a look. The same boats at the same price have been listed by brokerages for 12+ months at that price point. They are going nowhere. Thats price affecting re-sale ability. We shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking the A27 actually sells for $25-$30k. We also shouldnt fool ourselves into thinking it's max value in best restored condition is more than $30k.

That means if you repower your A27, costing $14k, you will never recoup that full cost in any way shape or form--unless you got the boat FREE, other than by your own use and the pleasure you get from it. Thats not a bad reason to pay for the repower, and I'm wrestling with it myself. But it does highlight the "true Resale Arguement."

The true resale arguement is that people want A27s, any A27s, in any condition, with or without a trailer, old engine or new, gas or diesel, because there's not that many and there never will be. Its unique in its design and member following. Its one of literally a handful of efficient pocket displacement trawlers in the downeast style, with the aft cabin, hardtop, standing head and galley. You cant buy the same thing today and not pay $100k or more. People only pay a fixed price for them. And no one is getting $30k for their 30 year old A27 repowered with a diesel. Just check our classifieds. Every single A27 owner, who has not found a suitable repower option, has the same issue. Great boat with a 30 year old (quite possibly hard to find parts) diesel engine. Your diesel goes sideways one day--guess what your only option is a $15k investment just to have a boat that can leave the dock? Any number of odd maintenance issues (rusting exhaust elbows, pumps, gaskets, whatever) and you are now searching for elusive rarer-than-gold parts. Oh and you have to be able to work on it. Or ask the three other people in the group who have the same weird engine what to do. And thats all do-it-yourself.

A potential customer sees a refitted A27 with a modern fuel efficient outboard? IMO a 2015 25hp outboard looks better than a 30 year old Nissan Ld28. BTW in the life of the boat, five years from now, even if the new outboard dies--its still cheaper to buy a second outboard, than it was to repower, and then you're back to a brand new engine.

MY real reasons so far for not chosing the outboard yet are:

1) you cant heat your water or cabin
2) you can't charge your massive battery system
3) long distance you will save $$$ with diesel once you go past 5,000+ miles of use.
4) you cant go fast; if that important to you
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by don123 »

Very well thought out JT - You make good points. It is certainly possible
JT48348 wrote: 4) you cant go fast; if that important to you
I'm a former sailor and didn't buy my Albin to 'go fast' and that's certainly not why I bought the 100 HP engine . . . . I was originally looking for a 75 HP Yanmar, as I mentioned earlier. I just feel having extra power in reserve is *sometimes* very important, at least for the way I intend to use my boat

A case in point. A close friend recently spent $12K repowering his Shannon 28 sailboat. He's owned this boat for more than 20 years and lived aboard it for much of that time. His boat had a low hours (less than 1,000) Yanmar 18 hp max/15 hp continuous rated 2 cylinder diesel engine. Nothing wrong with it - He sold it ($1500, engine, trans, starter alternator complete) after the repower and it's now in another boat.

Why the new engine? The old one would do hull speed in calm conditions, but just barely and with nothing in reserve. It would not in any sort of adverse conditions. A close friend of his has the same boat which a previous owner repowered with a 4 cylinder universal 35 HP diesel and in most conditions, my friend lagged behind that boat by a knot or a knot and a half - More when powering into the wind with a chop and much more if there was a strong current running against them

Anyway, my friend retired 3 years ago and got do some long distance cruising with his boat. Florida Keys, Bahamas, Bermuda and New England. He really was disgusted with the performance of his boat running full throttle against the current in passages in the Bahamas and also when transiting the C&D and Cape Cod canals. The current runs strong in both canals and the wise Captain times things so the current is with you and not against you . . . . but if your boat isn't fast enough to complete the transit before the current reverses itself, you can be in real trouble. There were times running against the current at full throttle with 18 HP where he was making less than 2 knots true. Safe maneuvering keeping clear of large ships and tows is really tough when you can't make more than 2 knots

He didn't repower with a 4 cylinder like in his friends boat. After seeking advice from Shannon (who built the boat . . . . they are still in business) and 3 other owners of the same boat they put him in touch with, he opted for a brand new Yanmar 30 HP 3 cylinder, which is over 50% more power than he had previously. The difference it made in the use of his boat was significant, as he knew it would be from following his friend around - He's out of pocket $12K ($10.5K after selling his old engine) but he's very happy with the change it has made in what he can do

If I was smarter . . . . I would have held out for an LD78 Nissan powered A-27 instead of 'saving' a few bucks buying the earlier Peugeot/Lehman 61 HP version. Parts are easier to find for the Nissan and in my opinion, the extra power is needed from time to time and I know I would be glad to have it

I'm actually looking forward to spending time in Eleuthera Bahamas this winter, even knowing I'll be transiting Current Cut both coming and going. The chart reads "Note: Check your tide tables before transiting Current Cut. The current is quite strong: It floods into and ebbs off of the bank. A sailboat or slower trawler may be unable to go against the flow at spring tides". It's a popular dive spot as the current carries the divers more than a mile through the cut in just 15 minutes

I may only use my 100 HP a few times per year, but when I need it, I'll be glad I'm not limited by my old 4D61. But . . . . if you only use your boat in slack water, a smallish outboard may be all you'll ever need. Still, I think you would eventually regret it if you used a 25 HP or smaller motor - Yes, it may get you hull speed in calm conditions, but I think there would eventually be times you'd wish you had more power . . . . a LOT more power. I had a 3GM30F Yanmar in my sailboat and could usually do hull speed with about 10 to 12 HP in calm water, but there were still times (a VERY memorable transiting Government Cut in Appalachicola running in from a storm for one) when I wished I had more than the 30 horsepower

Don
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by don123 »

A used 75 HP Yanmar turbo for $8K

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Yanmar-4JH2-HTE ... 79&vxp=mtr

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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by JT48348 »

Don:
Found in my area. Is this a good deal?

For sale is a Yanmar Diesel Sailboat Engine

Yanmar Type 4JH3-TE
2.0 L, 4 Cylinder
One cylinder is scored
Last edited by JT48348 on Wed Apr 22, 2015 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by don123 »

That's the non-intercooled, 75 HP version of my engine (69 HP @ 3700 RPM, 75 HP @ 3800 RPM) - The intercooler and a different cylinder head boosts the HTE version to 100 HP

If it's complete with the trans and the panel, the hours aren't too high and you have someone locally who can do a proper repair, I think it could be a heck of a deal - Even if you had $4K in it when you're all done, it would be a bargain in my book. I'd offer him $1500 and see if he'd take that . . . . the extra $500 could go toward the repair or buying any missing parts, like the panel

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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by JT48348 »

Latest info:

Appears to be 4JH3-TE, with panel, and KM4A transmission. Had a rebuild in 2006, then stopped running on a trip and the owner replaced with new engine rather than wait for rebuild. Reportedly had low hours. This is all second hand info so who knows. I was able to get copy of paperwork from mechanic circa 2006. I can pm if you would give me your opinion. I have photos to.

Bearing in mind I know nothing of diesel. How do I tell if it has a turbo or heat exchanger?

The photos looks very clean. It looks almost new from the photos so I don't know what to make of that.
In a crate with mounts alt panel and some electrical.

Hypothetically, what would it cost to have it rebuilt?
Would the KM4A transmission work in the Albin?
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Re: Replacement for 4D61

Post by don123 »

That sounds like a very promising engine and at a great price. Any competent diesel shop should be able to bore the cylinders and install 4 new pistons with new rings and you should be good to go. I would contact these guys and tell them what you have and maybe they can give you an idea what a proper rebuild will cost
http://toadmarinesupply.com/

The 4JH3-TE is turbocharged and it's freshwater cooled, so it has a heat exchanger. Physically, it's about the same size as the 4D61, so it will fit the space just fine. If it's a sailboat engine I would guess it has a 2.5 to 2.75 to 1 transmission ratio which is not ideal for a powerboat, but it will work fine if you match the prop to it. You'll want a larger 3 blade with quite a bit of pitch since it will be turning lots slower than your present engine/prop combo. I would *guess* something in the 17/15 range, but you can get with the folks at Michigan Wheel and give them all the particulars on your boat and they can dial it in for you better than my guesswork

The panel plugs right into the wiring harness and the other end of the harness plugs right into the engine, so there's very little electrical work to be done

Keep us posted - Sounds exciting!

Don
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