A27- Head modification

[AKDW]

I am planning a head renovation in my 27 FC to give more room for the commode. There is little room to sit down on the toilet so I am thinking of removing the sink and moving the commode and then installing some storage. I don't see putting a shower in a boat this size.

[tego]

I really don't see any problems with my head. 'course I'm only 5'10 and the wife is about 5'2 so no problems with height. I have been looking at pictures of other 27's and finally noticed a significant difference. My sink cabinet corner is not a 90, but rather a pair of 45's so the corner is cutaway about 3 and a half inches back from where the corner is on most of the others I saw. I sat down on the head and realized what a great difference this makes. It would be an easy modification if you feel cramped. Ben

[JFOkie]

I can't wait to see what you end up doing and pictures of the project. The sink is a waste if space, I would like to remove the whole thing. I looked into installing a composting head, but it would require removing the head and the base that it sits on. Not being able to store my 27FC at my house during the winter, I don't see me being able to get this done in a reasonable amount of time. Perhaps in the future.

Has anyone developed a holding tank for the shower grey water? I don't like the shower water going into the bilge, but not sure if it's possible to install some type of holding tank....and where to install it.

I like the portable shower someone posted, it looks like a good product.

John
M/V Nirvana

[Jay Knoll]

JT

Just looked at your latest layouts, are you now considering eliminating the hanging locker as part of the modification? If so, have you considered where you are going to put the electrical panel and the additional work required to relocate it? There are a lot of wires running behind that locker.

I was on our our boat this morning, and tried to visualize what it would feel like with the bulkhead pushed forward and to port to create the plan you are considering. I just don't see it working without essentially destroying the utility of the rest of that space.

Taking out the head sink and moving the head forward should give you the "sitting room" that a big guy like you needs and would probably be the best compromise.

Jay

Jay

[don123]

Earlier A-27's were different. My 1984 model has no wiring behind the hanging locker and the electrical panels are on the other side of the steps - At the end of the galley just above the cold storage bin. Assuming his boat is like mine, it would be no problem at all to do away with the hanging locker

While it might be nice to expand the footprint of the head, both of his proposals just destroy the livability of the rest of the forward cabin, iMO. If a roomy shower was high on my priority list (it isn't since we spend much less than 1% of our time there) I would be installing a shower on the swim platform where you have all the room you need to get the job done

Don

[JT48348]

I hear what everyone is saying but i dont get it. Looking at my proposed dimensions, its not "roomy" it's just finally serviceable. We're talking inches. Inches here, inches there. There's no "roominess" about it. LOL

I have tried the compromises you have suggested. Taken a shower on a toilet. Taken a shower on a swim platform in a crowded anchorage. Lol. Taken a shower in my own cockpit. While not necessarily on this boat-- the experience is sadly unsatisfactorily the same. Lets be honest.

I dont think squeezing thru a 16" head doorway or sitting belly-mashed against a a folding table on an 90 degree seat back bulkhead cushion is in any way "utilitarian". I think you mean "uncomfortable?"

[JT48348]

And also if you're going to say we spend 1% of our time showering, then you may as well say 1-2% of our time going to the bathroom. LOL. I mean think about it--how much time do you spend doing many things? I don't see anyone advocating boats with no bathrooms?? Or no stoves? I think that argument does not hold up to logic. An airplane spends 1% of its time landing, but you don't advocate doing away with landing gear! LOL Its not about "how much time" its used. Its about the living standard it imparts, or the necessity ---when its used. Its a cost-value thing. I need a head I can fit in comfortably. I need a shower. I think I have good reasons for needing this, based on prior experience and knowledge.

I think the adjustment of just ***24-36 sqr inches**** (only 2-3 sqr feet!) in a few key places on a Albin 27 will make a world of difference. My goals may be different than many others. My goals are not re-sale ability (although its good to think about this); or showering in a bathing suit; building shower contraptions in my cockpit; or making do with a few design components that simply do not fit a 6' 250lb guy or crew when they are trying to use the bathroom of all times.

My goals are about staying out on the water 3days at a time, self sustaining, extended cruising with weekly marina pop-ins, comfortable living quarters on the water, in an affordable well founded efficient shoal draft trailerable trawler.

Re: hanging locker:
My current hanging locker is a dirty locker 10" deep and approx. "12" wide? and with some small can good shelves currently taking space. Yes there are some electronics, but these can be moved, probably should be moved somewhere else.

And the hanging locker in my design goes right around the corner, over a small a/c-d/c refrig. The only "loss" is the missing bench and I suppose you could say the sitting area and the weird vberth. The sitting area has already been moved on deck, in the cockpit under a extended hardtop and enclosure, perfect for entertaining.

[JT48348]

Has anyone developed a holding tank for the shower grey water? I don't like the shower water going into the bilge, but not sure if it's possible to install some type of holding tank....and where to install it.

I plan to install a grey water sump under the shower, since water should not be going into the bilge. I'm not sure if there is enough room under the pan liner, but I think near the centerline, close to the current drain there may be. The smallest store bought sump I've found so far is 4" high.

[Jay Knoll]

Hey JT

I get the sense that you think people are ganging up on you, it is hardly the case. We're just sharing our experience/thoughts with you, after all you did ask!

And everything on a boat this size is a compromise, we all know that, it just matters which ones are higher on one's "need" list.

I agree with you about that 90 degree settee, that is why on our boat we threw away the cushions on the bulkhead and got a few throw pillows. It is amazing what the difference was without that block of foam pushing one forward.

Now, speaking of inches, have you considered how you're going to use that galley with a solid bulkhead hitting your behind as you cook? Can you back up enough to get to the drawers or under the sink? Where are you going to store the stuff you need for meals?

I embarked on a refit of my 27FC last fall, it has been a fun journey, I've owned boats for 43 years, done lots of modifications on them, lived aboard a Crealock37 full time for 2 1/2 years and cruised extensively (2-3 months at a time) for another 10 before we sold her. Even with that experience I totally underestimated the amount of time that it has taken (and will yet take) to complete this refit. You can find some details here

viewtopic.php?f=28&t=6804

I've built some furniture in my day, and I've found that my drawings, detailed as I could make them, never let me know how a piece would look until I did a mockup and put it in the planned for place. The new galley rack took 3 tries with cardboard before I got it right, and that was with specific dishes! I urge you to put some cardboard up and get a sense of your final space. If you're as big a guy as you say, you may have a great shower and the rest of the below decks space may be totally frustrating to use, even if its only for cooking and storage.

Check your fresh water capacity, on our boat we only have 33 gallons of fresh water.

You know what they say, opinions are like noses, everyone has one!

Good luck on the project, we're all (obviously) interested in what you finally decide to do. My wife and I like the option of having two nice sitting spaces, we spend most of the time topsides, but on rainy/cold days we really enjoy hunkering down in the main cabin with a book and a warm drink. We occasionally eat below but find that the table is a great extension to the galley and, sometimes, as a makeshift workspace.\

[JT48348]

Sorry if my replies came off defensive. I certainly dont think anyone is ganging up. Theres some common arguments against this type of mod which i think its healthy to question. We have all seen and read the forums and i hope what makes the discussion interesting is a passionate argument for something other than the norm. What i hope to do differently is document it well with photos drawings and maybe video.

Re: bulkhead.
Love this idea! One of the things i plan to do is put a piece of cardboard where the new bulkhead will be and i will take some pictures. This might be the deal breaker

This project could go either way. At any moment we might uncover a deal breaker (like not enough space for a sump, or a confining bulkhead, or no drawer space.)

[don123]

And also if you're going to say we spend 1% of our time showering, then you may as well say 1-2% of our time going to the bathroom. LOL. I mean think about it--how much time do you spend doing many things? I don't see anyone advocating boats with no bathrooms?? Or no stoves? I think that argument does not hold up to logic.

The 1% is a comparison of how much time you spend in one space as opposed to another space - If you rob space from the forward cabin where you do spend considerable time to add it to the head where you spend very little time, you're not improving your overall usage of the very limited space. As Jay correctly points out, the shrunken forward cabin may wind up much less usable for cooking, eating and sleeping . . . . and you can't do any of those in the head

I think the adjustment of just ***24-36 sqr inches**** (only 2-3 sqr feet!) in a few key places on a Albin 27 will make a world of difference.

One square foot is 144 sq inches and 3 square feet stolen from the forward cabin is HUGE and greatly affects how you will be able to use the remaining space - Again, you are taking space from where you spend lots of time to reallocate it to a place where you spend very little time

My goals are about staying out on the water 3days at a time, self sustaining, extended cruising with weekly marina pop-ins, comfortable living quarters on the water, in an affordable well founded efficient shoal draft trailerable trawler.

I have a close friend who has lived aboard a Shannon 27 for more than 25 years and his head would fit in our A27's head about twice! When people look in there they all say the same thing . . . . "Boy, that's a TINY space" and he always says "Well, I don't spend much time in there" Point taken. He would never consider doing what you suggest . . . . robbing space from where you live to add it to a place you spend very little time. Space is so limited, you must make the very best use of it

But . . . . whatever works for you. I would definitely recommend you cut a couple sheets of 1/4 inch plywood and mount them with tape where you intend your new bulkheads to be and see if you actually can live with the space you have left in the forward cabin. I think you'll be surprised at how much smaller it all is once you rob 'a few square feet' to add to the head

Don

[JT48348]

Photographs of the head bulkhead mockups below. I want to thank everyone who recommended using cardboard for a bulkhead mockup to get an idea of how things might fit, and me fit inside them. I used foam posterboard 20x30" sheets from Walmart, which I ducktaped together and put in place. It worked exceptionally well and is re-usable so it will be great for additional projects I have planed.

First immediate observation, the white posterboard even with duct tape was an immediate improvement to the off white almost tan pan linner throughout the boat. May be hard to see from the pics, but the white fields of the mock bulkheads were clean, refreshing to look at, reflected light well, and man did it look good. LOL Just my opinion. I can foresee painting the liner throughout. Its got to be white.

Second observation. The head is now huge. And a real head. OMG its sweeeeet. The mock bulkheads neither infringe on the galley area, nor vary much from the original footprint at foot level. At shoulder level, its NOT claustrophobic. May be hard to tell from photos but it looks like it should have been this way. In no way does it hamper the cooking area. Before, the forward cabin was a vberth, a head, a galley, a seatee, and a dining area. Five things it didn't do well for me. Now the forward cabin is a galley, a head, and quarter berth. It could do these 3 things really really well.

Third, the door idea, opening fore or aft hinged is not the best use of space, and would require moving or adjusting the steps (actually one step) that is currently there. Its hard to get a 20" swinging door in there. I am now considering some type of pocket door, or sliding door. This will be a great solution, and it can be 20". This also means not all the hanging locker has to go, maybe just 1/2.

Fourth, I planned an a/c&d/c refrigerator between the mock bulkhead and the vberth, but the foot print is not level due to the curve of the hull at the floor. However, raised off the deck approx. chest height there's a great space, which I think will work well. I still need to hash out the refrig dimensions.

Fifth, instead of a the 90 degree angle at the mock bulkhead, I would consider joining the two bulkheads with a 45 degree piece just to reduce the sharp edges. Another solution is a curve, using wiggle wood or something. I will have to think on that.

All in all, very successful. I like it. Full steam ahead. The next steps will be removing and getting into things. This may take a while to report on.

[JT48348]

Photographs of the mock bulkhead, where the bulkhead bench seat used to be, and some other angles I tried to capture. It would have been better with a fish eye lens, but didn't have one. IMHO no perceptible loss of movement due to footprint.

[Jay Knoll]

JT

Glad you did the mockup, now you know that it will really work for you. I know what you mean about lightening up the inside of the boat, that is why I used ash veneer when I restored the bulkhead and the doors on my FC. I like the idea of curving that corner, it will look much better than two 45's and the pocket door is a good idea as well. Does the bulkhead hit the overhead just aft of the hatch?

If you're going to take a sawzall to the interior,maybe there is something you can do on the galley side as well! Just a thought............. if you're going to make a mess might as well make a big one and get it done once and for all. You could consider cutting out the ice box and installing your fridge in that area.

Looking forward to the next steps. I wouldn't do this to my boat but I am interested to see how it turns out. I looked at your post on restoring the sailboat, sweet job! You've got the chops for this project.

Jay

[don123]

Actually, the two 45 degree angles will give you more space and they should look just fine

We have a huge pantry which takes a chunk out of our kitchen. Originally when the house was built, the pantry was a laundry room with a washer and dryer but it was later converted to a pantry when the laundry room was relocated elsewhere. Anyway, when we remodeled the kitchen, we did exactly as JT suggested and cut back about 8 inches on each wall and put a 45 degree panel in place of the corner we removed - What a tremendous change that made to the usability of the remaining kitchen space!! I would definitely suggest mocking that up with your poster boards to see if it will work for you as well as it did for us

I also like the practicality of pocket doors and think that's the solution for your limited space

Don