A27- Head modification

[JT48348]

Has anyone considered modifying the head on the Albin 27?
If you have done this, I would appreciate any pictures.

Here's what I am thinking, take out the marine toilet and the sink. Cut the pan liner that makes up the step for the toilet and the sink cabinet. Cut & remove the bench seat in the v-berth area. Remove the table. Put the forward-most bulkhead where the bench seat used to be(forward edge). In this way , the bathroom would be enlarged. The toilet would go across from the new opening door. To the right as you enter the head, would be a standing shower, separate from the toilet. There would be no sink in the head, since there's a sink in the galley 3-4 feet away. I would build the shower enclosure & rebuild the head space with FRP panels from Home Depot. The v-berth would become a quarter berth. And dining accomodations get moved on deck where I plan to extend the hardtop.

Anyone know whats under the interior pan liner, and is it structural or used a grid?

[Jay Knoll]

Hi JT

Well that is an interesting project! A few thoughts

you are taking up some pretty valuable living space for a relatively infrequently used activity

you can use the existing head as a shower, put a flip up slatted teak seat over the commode and a hand shower in the head sink and a shower sump under the floor

these boats don't have a large fresh water capacity, so you'll be having to refill the tank a lot if you're taking long showers -- if you're only going to do "Navy"showers the previous point is even more germane

if you're in a marina use the shore based shower, cuts down on the humidity in the boat, reduces the potential for mildew and makes cleanup a lot easier

If you do decide to go ahead with this project, I'd consider hinging the door on the other side from where you show it in your sketch. As it is drawn you kind of have to "walk around" the door to get in the head, with the larger head there won't be a lot of floor space to move around. Hinged the other way, you open it forward, slip in to the head without a lot of hassle.

I don't know if resale value is an issue for you, this is a major change that might suit your needs to a "T" but I know if I was looking at a boat with this type of a modification I would immediately pass it by.

I like the hard top, we have one on our A27 but ours extends back to the end of the aft cabin, it give us some more shade and protection from the weather and we don't have to scurry to shut the aft hatch when a squall threatens.

I look forward to seeing what you'll be doing this is a pretty ambitious project!

Jay

[Marcy K]

Hi JT

If it's just shower space that you're thinking of - have you considered installing a shower hose on your swim platform? We have one on our A 34 (didn't on our A 27). We love it and most showers are outside - no clean-up or mildew. Installed it 5 years ago and its had a LOT of use. Then you won't be giving up so much living (and storage) space. Just a thought.

Marcy K
A 34 Paumanok 1986
Falmouth/Redbrook Harbor MA

[tego]

Howdy JT, I'm going with Jay K.I have a 27FC myself and the shower is the least used place on a boat. I had a separate shower on my Pearson 424 ketch and I loved it because, in addition to being a shower, it was the perfect place to hang wet foulies ( and on a sailboat the foulies were wet a lot!). We have a covered steering station on the 27 and I don't even have a set of foul weather gear on board! I think it would be a terrible waste of scarce space on our boats. I'd also pass it by if I were looking for a 27FC. Just my opinion. Ben.

[JFOkie]

JT,

I would have to agree with Jay, I wouldn't waste all that space for a head/shower. Having said that, I've thought about removing the head and installing a compost head. Due to the height if the composting head, I would have to cut out and remove the fiberglass base that the heads sits on; seems like a lot of work for a head.

Jay, I would love to see some pictures of the extended hardtop. I've considered that too, but not sure if I want to lose the open cockpit.

John
M/V Nirvanna

[JT48348]

Thanks for all the responses, love the discussion. I'm still on the fence a little, but leaning towards undertaking this project. I really appreciate the feedback, and please don't let me offend anyone. Allow me to argue passionately for the shower. Here's why.

I lived aboard for a year on a 30ft sailboat, and again for 4 years on a 45ft coastal cruiser. The sailboat had no shower, and so I was tied to marinas or roughing it. The coastal cruiser was basically a Hatteras hull with a house boat configuration up top. It had a head with a separate shower, and an aft stateroom with California king bed. Priceless. My female guests reveled in the "normalicy" of it. At the end of a long day, or long night LOL, a hot shower was to be king. The shower was tiny, but separate being the key. It had a bed that never needed to be stowed or made up. (To be sure I chose the A27 FC because of the aft cabin and the potential for a shower, a great galley, the cockpit area, efficiency, and the hull shape.) Its from my live aboard time, that I came to believe there are two things that make long term boat living civilized. (Btw my shower never got moldy because I had adequate ventilation and it was kept clean.)

Just like when I was a Marine, to me the key is having a hot shower and air conditioning; that's the difference between roughing it and camping. I'm well aware many people frown on the idea of a shower in a boat. But everyone has a shower in the house. They bring the tv, microwave, radio, computer, etc to the boat---but no shower? Let me tell you from first hand experience, a shower in a boat is priceless. Yes it can double as a foulie locker. Forget foulies, how about wet towels, dirty clothes, wet space? Yes you need some tankage. Yes you need some space to build it. Of course it needs some ventilation. You shower in your bathing suit on the swim platform or deck- but when you need to be clean, u need some privacy below decks.

Having a shower facilitates living on the boat. For a day, or three days, or more. Every day I live on the boat is less a day spent in the marina, sans that cost. If I can stay away from the marina for three days and nights because I don't need to their shower or head, I'm one step ahead of the game.

Seems to me, the factory head & vberth configuration tries to be many things to many people, and in doing so it's not particulary good at any of them. I'm 6' 250 and the toilet space is cramped. The dinnete table is, interesting, I guess. The vberth-many things at once. The head sink is tiny &redundant, with limited storage, not to mention it all needs a refit due to age. Taking a shower on the toilet is---taking a shower on a toilet?! I know this is the solution offered by boat manufacturers since forever--but do we all take a shower on our toilet at home? Even in an RV? I don't think so.

To me the wasted space is a head that no one feels comfortable using because its too small, has no shower, "looks" like a bathroom but isn't, and its really no place you want to go, let alone get cleaned up or change into fresh clothes before or after bed. Better to have a head that has a great toilet space, and a great shower (for a boat). Lets do two things well and serviceable. Just two.

And as for resale, well you can be an A27 purist and squeeze into your factory head, but who wouldn't want a shower on a 27ft boat if the shower looked like it originally belonged there? The ladies, and me, for sure.

I will call it the A27 FCSM The Family Cruiser Shower Model.

[tego]

JT, Another thing to consider is the fact that ALL of the parts you are considering removing are tabbed to the hull. I believe that they play an integral part in the structural rigidity of the hull. You might want to look at that aspect also , and possibly compensate for that in your construction. It's your boat and if you're going to make it your home, do whatever makes you more comfortable.Ben.

[JT48348]

Measurements from the coastal cruiser. I thought is was so great I took measurements before I sold it. The shower space was 29"x 20"-24" depending on the height, vinyl walling over plywood I think.. This was basically a European shower, I was told. Practically, it might be possible to go a little smaller, but it was sheer luxury at this size.

That shower was supplied by 100gal fresh water, and a household hot water heater. Of course there was a generator on the boat. Two people could shower like in a house for a week, no issue. For the A27, I would try for 30-50gal fresh water, with a 6-10 hot water heater, or a heat on demand system. Shower sump needed since you don't ever want gray water in bilge. Had a 20gal holding tank that lasted a week for two people before a pumpout. I later installed a Lectrasan head system, very successful.

[JT48348]

Ben: any idea where its tabbed? I assume the fwd head bulkhead is probably tabled. The aft bulkhead would stay in place. As far as the sink cabinet, head step, and vberth starboard bench, looks like just part of the molded pan.

Wonder what's inside or under those spaces?

[Jay Knoll]

JT
Yes, this is going to be a fun thread and I'm looking foward to what you eventually create.

Before I'd start cutting I would suggest taking some sheets of big cardboard and mocking up the new bulkhead configuration that you will have designed. I've found that things that look OK on paper sometimes don't work when they are realized in three dimensions. I think you'll find that it really will feel "tight" in the remainder of the cabin. I'm 6' 2" and can stand up (barefoot) in the head, but I can't stand up next to the galley or near the table. Of course, if you think that you're going to spend all your time in the cockpit then that might not be a problem. Take a careful look at the starboard side of the hull liner, it starts to curve in pretty quickly, especially under the table area. There may not be enough flat area to accomplish your objective. I can't remember where the aft port lines up with the seat below, you may be able to put the bulkhead between the two but then you might be running into the hatch................

Lots to think about!

[don123]

We had a spacious head on our 34' sailboat and we loved it! Big enough we could even shower together and it had a curtain which covered everything 360 so there was no clean-up after using it

That said, I wouldn't be willing to give up the living space on our A-27 for the mod that you propose. One other BIG thing to consider is the structural implications of your proposed mod. If you do not cut the floorpan so you can tab the new wall into the hull, you may wind up with something that affects the structural rigidity of the deck above - You might wind up with flexing and squeaks as the hull/deck flexes. Also, I don't think you're going to gain an inch of flat floorspace by cutting away the hull liner where the sink and head are located - I believe the flat floor already there is all you're going to get as the hull begins curving up at that point

I do agree there is little need for a sink and cabinet in the head - Why not redesign the head so the commode is where the sink is now and enlarge the shower area so that you can put in a 90 degree track on the ceiling for a real shower curtain? I've added a real showerhead to mine with the fixtures and piping in the hanging locker so that we won't have to shower sitting down. I think without the vanity and sink you should have enough real estate for the head and a shower without moving any bulkheads

Don

[JT48348]

Don: right you are this is something I want to look into, keeping the bulkhead in place and just eliminating the vanity & sink.

My thoughts on the head lead me to question the vberth and dining table. The galley seems resonable, but the bberth & table IDK. I hate to tear into a nice liner, but space you wont use is wasted space no matter how well designed or nice looking. My time aboard boats has caused me to think about what did I really use, and what did I put up with just becuase some else designed it into a boat.

I think my first step to take some detailed measurements of the head as it stands now. I will try and post these with photos. Then I may open and probe some of the area behind the pan liner to see if I can view how things are attached and whats there. I could probably cover the openings with small 3" inspection ports?

I am curious how the pan liner is attached, and where, and what it really does structurally.

Also curious about the current hot water configurations you all have, your tankage, and the holding capacity?

[tego]

JT, I cut out an opening behind my head and installed a dripproof door on the opening. While I was in there, I noticed that the sink cabinet is tabbed to the hull quite well. I constructed an inner liner for the cavity with a removeable bottom. Ended up with about 2 cu ft of great storage. I think I'd look very carefully at the available sole space left to you if you remove the dinette seat for your shower. Look under the dinette seat and you'll see that the curvature of the hull upward and inward at sole level will give you a very small foot area in your shower. The idea of removing the sink cabinet sounds much more feasible. Ben

[kathylsails]

Have you considered pop-up showers that use solar shower bags? I have used the solar showers in the head on our last 3 boats, including our Albin 30 FC. Plus, I use the bag on our swim platform for washing my hair. Here is a pop-up shower that you could probably put in your cockpit: http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/ ... oCXRvw_wcB

[JT48348]

Ok I spent some time climbing around the boat last night. Took some measurements of the current layout. The current head layout just seems to be doing too many things at once, packed into too tight a space. The door opening alone, as you enter head goes from 16" to 18" only! There's only 17" sitting on the can between the sink and bulkhead. Amazing.

My measurements are apporoximates, and it goes without saying that the diagrams are not to scale. I tried to measure the key points and then study the floor pan layout to determine heights and hull curvature. The first diagram is of the current layout. I assume this is standard to most A27FC. The second diagram was my initial re-design, but it presents a problem with the door. It would likely be even less width than current layout. My second version I like better.