Spring projects - help needed- shaft seal and rudder

[Robb]

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Just finishing up refreshing the Cummins and Hurth and now on to the boat. Many of the engine issues that I repaired over the winter I can trace to a engine living in a wet bilge for a prolonged period of time. The corrosion was heavy. Now I am determined to keep my bilges dry. My 1996 28TE had a traditional shaft seal with packing. I just removed the unit from the boat yesterday. Lets just say it was original and grossly neglected due to its location. I have three issues that I would greatly appreciate any and all advise or experiences.

1. What dripless systems are other 28TE owners using successfully? I know that the newer boats came with a Tides system. I am partial to the PYI PSS units as they do not wear on the shaft but am concerned about setting up under the engine.

My other main source of bilge water was from the rudder packing. We also pulled the rudder assembly yesterday. This brings up two questions on how to best proceed forward.

2. The rudder shaft has corrosion where the shaft sits on in the rudder post packing. Will this seal up to a near drip free seal? Has anyone else had a similar issue? Is there a repair besides replacing the rudder? I see that Tides offers a rudder lip seal. Has anyone converted to one of these?

3. The bearing at the bottom of the rudder was shot. Basically it look like a short piece of cutlass bearing pressed into the bottom of the rudder skeg. The bottom of the rudder has been wearing on the skeg. It seems like there should be a PTFE or UHMW washer between the skeg and rudder bottom in addition to the cutlass bearing, This way both vertical and rotational loads are held. How have others replaced the rudder bottom bearing?

Thanks.

[Pitou]

1. What dripless systems are other 28TE owners using successfully? I know that the newer boats came with a Tides system. I am partial to the PYI PSS units as they do not wear on the shaft but am concerned about setting up under the engine.

My '02 came through with a Tides packless shaft seal at build and it failed in the fall of '04 at 194 hours. At the time my mechanic was not a fan of the Tides sealing system and recommended the PYI, PSS. Today at 1018 hours it's performing as the day it was installed. Part number 02-112-200 for 1/2 inch shaft.

My other main source of bilge water was from the rudder packing. We also pulled the rudder assembly yesterday. This brings up two questions on how to best proceed forward.

2. The rudder shaft has corrosion where the shaft sits on in the rudder post packing. Will this seal up to a near drip free seal? Has anyone else had a similar issue? Is there a repair besides replacing the rudder? I see that Tides offers a rudder lip seal. Has anyone converted to one of these?

It's hard to say if you need to go as far as rudder replacement. Once again it's Buck Algonquin at about $ 1,200 and in their catalog. I'd try polishing that upper post section and lay in new packing material. I developed a slowwww drip in 2009 and at spring commissioning in 2010 I laid new packing all was solved, but I did not have any corrosion.

PYI has PSS rudder shaft seals as well, though I am not familiar with their use.

3. The bearing at the bottom of the rudder was shot. Basically it look like a short piece of cutlass bearing pressed into the bottom of the rudder skeg. The bottom of the rudder has been wearing on the skeg. It seems like there should be a PTFE or UHMW washer between the skeg and rudder bottom in addition to the cutlass bearing, This way both vertical and rotational loads are held. How have others replaced the rudder bottom bearing?

In 2010 as preventative maintenance and as I was doing the packing above I removed the shoe at the end of the skeg and brought it to my local prop shop to have them remove the old cutlass bearing and press in a new one. Most likely the wearing of your shoe is the result of a worn cutlass bearing. There should be no slop or play in that bearing.

For me that completed the replacement of all bearings as the stern tube bearing was done at spring commissioning in '05 after noticing some ever so slight play when the shaft was slid back to install the new PSS Shaft Seal the prior fall.

With all that you're doing to your engine, transmission and running gear you'll have the deferred big stuff behind you and it should now be easy to keep up.

Robb, You're doing a great job and doing things right.

[Robb]

Kevin thank you for taking the time for such a detailed answer. I'm really glad to hear that the PSS is working good as this is my preferred solution also. I'm ordering one today.

Just for the heck of it I think I'm going to install a UHMW washer between the rudder bottom and the skeg to take and vertical loading and offset the wear that has occurred.

I'll try buffing out the rudder shaft and hope for for the best with new packing.

Wish you had Pitou for sale last year, I would have avoided all these project and just bought her...

[Halcyon]

If the shaft doesn't polish up well there are sleeves made for repairing minor damage. I believe they are for lip seals and available at bearing/hydrolic shops. Good luck!

[RobS]

My '02 came through with a Tides packless shaft seal at build and it failed in the fall of '04 at 194 hours. At the time my mechanic was not a fan of the Tides sealing system and recommended the PYI, PSS. Today at 1018 hours it's performing as the day it was installed. Part number 02-112-200 for 1/2 inch shaft.

At 194 hours? Did the lip seal burn up due to lack of cooling water? I replaced my Tides lipseal in winter 2007/2008 at which time it was 7 seasons old with 440 hours. It was not leaking and upon removal it looked like new.

I also worked with Matt (mhanna) a couple seasons back to replace his Tides lipseal as periodic maintenance. His seal was 8 years old with approx 1000hrs and looked like new and was not leaking.

Just this weekend I pulled out the seal housing and the blue stern tube hose. It's sitting here on my desk as I type this. The seal has almost 600 hours on it and again looks like new and was not leaking. The blue stern tube hose dates back to original equipment (April 2000) and also looks (and feels) 100% like new. Again this is all periodic maintenance.

I do check my shaft seal cooling water flow every season using a stopwatch and a collecting container.

I have been 110% satisfied with the Tides product and just decided to upgrade to the current SureSeal setup with articulating stern tube boot. They offer a 50% (2 for 1) discount for existing customers if you send back the original equipment. The new setup is on it's way, I shall have it on Thursday. They gave me an RMA# for returning the original eqpt.

[Pitou]

At the time Rob I was in my first season with the Albin having just put a little over 100 hours on her and having a ball. The seal was not leaking and was delivering water to the shaft, but when the boat was engaged in reverse the hose barb spun with the shaft and the water hose was torn into two pieces as it was secured by hose clamps at the shaft seal and at the water feed coming from the gear cooler. I was lucky in the sense that a water alarm immediately sounded and I shut the engine down and opened the engine box and discovered the hose torn in two. This alarm wire was for an optional water alarm to the Racor to detect water in the fuel. I'm glad that option had not been installed and that the wire was bundled perfectly to take the spray and no other damage occurred. We all get lucky sometimes. I had enough hose length left to button things up and get home in forward gear without issue, but when docking I shifted to reverse and the same thing happened once again. I called my new found diesel mechanic, hauled the next day and had him replace the shaft seal as he recommended with his flavor of choice.

In 2011 I had the shaft seal serviced, but honestly don't know much about their workings as you're a better man than I crawling that deep for that long into the bowels of the 28's bilge!

It was great bumping into you and your family by chance in Boston a few weeks back. Everyone looks great!

BTW - When on the hard I do check the stern tube for a steady water flow, but what is the recommended flow?

[RobS]

It was great bumping into you and your family by chance in Boston a few weeks back. Everyone looks great!

BTW - When on the hard I do check the stern tube for a steady water flow, but what is the recommended flow?

Ditto, and we were at the show all of 5 minutes when I spotted you drooling all over the engines at the Cummins display ! Heck, that's always the first place I go too when I get to the show..

1 Gallon/Minute and flow should increase with engine rpms

[Nepidae]

I just had Lasdrop put in our Albin 43 Sundeck.

Haven't hit the water yet, but Lasdrop comes with a 3 year warranty and there is no set screw to worry about.

My mechanic, who I gave Carte Blance to, he could send the Lasdrop back if he didn't think it would meet or exceed the PSS seals he was used to, put them in with a excellent report.

Whatever you put in, consider a vented loop in the installation.

[jleonard]

I have a tides seal in my Albin, I also put one in my 'ex" the old 34 Mainship. Both installations are flawless. I had over 1000 hours on the Mainship and have 500 plus on the Albin.
I check cooling water flow each spring. I just changed out the seal on my Albin last spring only because I wanted to do the PM ahead of a failure.
I eliminate an issue with shaft wear by installing a slightly longer hose allowing room to move the seal aft several times if necessary in case it develops a groove (simply cut the hose 1/4 inch shorter)...which neither boat did.

I went with the Tides for the same reason others stated...my marina had to do so many repairs on the PSS/PYI style and no repairs to the Tides style. I know several who had the bellows style fail and when it does it's ugly

I repaired the bottom "bearing" that was on my Mainship by using a standard bronze bushing out of McMaster-Carr. The rudder weight should NOT be supported by that bearing. It should be supported inside the boat by a collar. And that collar should have a bronze (or better) thrust bearing under it to halp it rotate. I think Tides makes those bearings and collars as well as rudder shaft seals if you wanted to go that way.

[RobS]

Here's the original and the updated Tides. The original straight hose can be bought by the foot. The articulated hose comes precut but can be special ordered at a different length. The original one has 12 seasons on it and it shows no wear, dryness, etc.....just replacing it because I can