Bilge Keels/Plates for beaching Albin 27?

[Porch]

Hello- This subject may well have been covered and if so, i'm sorry for the repetition. I did run a search though and found no posts available. I am currently boatless and looking hard at the Albin 27, however, one major criterion needs be met, and I am trying to find out whether or not it can be done:
Has anyone added bilge plates/keel to his/her Albin 27 so that the boat is able to safely let the tide go out from under her on every tide- and she stays safely upright and [given relatively flat beach] relatively level?
My sailing grounds are regularly subject to extreme tides and the best protected anchorages are in large river flats. But outside the anchorage, the seas can get nasty in a hurry [considering winter gales running against perhaps a 6-8k tidal current or more]. So the boat must 1-be reilable in a sea and 2-be able to take the beach at nearest river flat. Any suggestions as to the efficacy of adding bilge plates? One post I found on another forum declared that the Albins were not designed with hull sufficiently stout to enable bilge keels- they were built with lighter lay up to reduce weight, as not subject to constant pounding of a full planing hull. I've read posts about bilge plates being added for added stability in a beam sea- but for beaching?
Thanks for any comment, hints, suggestions.
Porch

[AKDW]

I see that you are in Tenakee. If I remember right that channel is not protected so there is some wave action. I have a 27 and wouldn't feel confident letting it go dry on regular basis even with bilge plates. Something with a dory bottom like a CDory might work better for that.

[Brian]

Although ours is a 25', it has a pair of bilge keels added at some point.
I suppose the force is transferred to a rounded bilge shape which is relativly strong like an egg.
With the 27, I would think putting bilge keels close to the hard chine would be OK?
Brian

[Porch]

Thank you, AKDW in Seward and thank you, Brian in B.C.:
AKDW: you are certainly correct that Tenakee Inlet itself is exposed, except right at the head, which is 20miles or so up inlet. But there are several good river flats [all on the south side, unfortunately]- these are reasonably well protected if you go up on full tide. The good news is that usually only skiffs can leave her at full tide, as keel boats will careen when they go dry. So locals have the bays pretty much to themselves but for rare visitor who anchors out with water under his keel- and then, he's unlikely to stay long, since even in the bays, trouble can happen if left too long on the hook, especially in winter, of course.
I've not been to Seward, just kicked around PWS during the oil spill ['89], out of Valdez, and looked like good country- if anything, a bit more rugged than SE. I did spend a couple seasons set-netting in Chinitna Bay off Cook Inlet, and the same can be said of that bay [and perhaps of all Cook Inlet?] as of SE Alaska in general: bilge keels are the only way I would trust a long time anchorage, since I can go dry on a reasonably protected river flat during high tide and so be out of any blow most of the time between tides, especially if go up at spring tide or if use rollers and winches to get even higher up a flat beach.
Brian: thanks for the photo: you have a beautiful 25'. Full cockpit hardtop, skiff on platform in stern, well kept. Since first posted to this link, have found on another forum wherein an owner of a 27' Albin explained that the Albin 27 was not just a scaled up version of the Albin 25. The 25's, he said, were more solidly glasssed, thus permitting addition of bilge keels. Till your boat, I've never seen bilge keels added to Albin in states, but have seen several photos of different Albin 25 examples with bilge keels in Europe.
Should anyone be interested, I have a separate link that explains the process of how to add bilge keels to his Albin 25 without bolting through the hull. Also, have another link that mentions bilge plates helped significantly reduce roll- though plates added by this second author were not for beaching, but for added stability only, much like poles used to be used on small commercial trollers to reduce roll in a beam sea [and, with bilge plates, in a wash from a ship, too]. Should anyone be curious, please let me know and I'll forward either of those links.
Sadly, I've given up as unwise the idea of bilge keels added to the 27.
For the 25, Brian- she's a nice looking boat. I'd be curious if you've found the keels to be of good service, as your waters, too, are similar [currents, tidal bays] to those of farther north.
Thanks.

[Brian]

Hey Porch,
Thanks. Yes, our 25 has been well kept.
The bilge keels were added earlier in her life but not sure who exactly. Two owners ago bought her in England so maybe they were added there as many boats in the estuaries there are left to dry on the flats?
They do have glassed over bolt/nuts on the inside but cannot make out as it is all painted.
I can't really make a definite statment as to how much improvement they make in rolling but am sure they make a difference.
With our Volvo Penta 30hp, at 2400rpm, with a 15" x 10" prop, we make 6.5 knts. Not sure how that stacks up against similarily outfitted boats but previous owner cruised with other A 25's and said there was no loss in speed.
I'd be interested in those links.
Brian

[Veebyes2]

Don't know if you can see good enough but this is how they do it on the Bay of Fundy.





These boats have very deep keels, much deeper proportionately the the A27.

[Porch]

Brian & VeeByes2: Thank you both for responding with helpful and/or interesting input.

Brian:
Others on Brit sites have confirmed that is no or negligable increase in fuel consumption with addition of bilge keels.
Since your boat originates from Britain, then that certainly could be where the bilge keels came from.
Thanks for info on having been installed with bolt-thru keels. Looks like a good job of it.

These days, hard to fathom the fiscal sense of freighting an Albin [or any boat] to the US across the Atlantic, but in 80's, if memory serves, if you were in Britain you could buy a $ for about .4 pound sterling. Today, a dollar costs about .6 pounds. [put other way, before, took 2.50$ to buy a pound; now, takes 1.6$ or thereabouts, again- if memory serves]. So perhaps if you owned pounds, paying for shipping to states in dollars may have made sense at one time. Especially if you wanted the use of bilge keels on this continent.

Here are the links we talked about:
-regarding dampening roller by using bilge plates:

http://www.albin-25.nl/ENGELS/Ingezonde ... 0Albin.htm
Note that a search on the net will reveal more liinks on this topic.

-regarding installing plates without bolting through:
http://www.albin-25.nl/ENGELS/Ingezonde ... mkiel.html

Could not remember where I filed this link, till realized, the two links mentioned above are from the same most excellent author's site on his experience with his Albin 25 in Europe. Here is where you can find much more of his hard won recommendations:
http://www.albin-25.nl/ENGELS/links.html

Veebyes2:
Do they have tides in Bay of Fundy?
Just kidding.
Thanks for interesting photos. Looks like these are steel work boats with relatively flat sections aft on either side of keel. You mention they are deep keeled, but if they are steel, you have a lot more options: you can make a simple job of adding bilge plates by welding them on, and structurally, should not be an issue; althernatively, you can block up the stern as looks like in these photos- though I am not sure what I am looking at here. Also, one boat looks like is using a form of beach legs.

These are workable ideas- indeed, who kbows more about tide range than the Newfies?
But for a fiberglass boat, all is different. Hull need be beefed to hold her with plates added to keel. And though a steel boat may survive a careen relatively unscathed,, may not be so true for glass boat, especially if scraping along with even slight swell.

Also, these boats in photo look to be in a protected spot? - beach wall is nearby, and also, tied to wharf or rafted to each other.
This looks fine for a tide or two when attended.

But both beach legs and blocking, if left unatttended for tide after tide, without someone to adjust rigging and lines on legs or adjust cribbing should it move in flood water-- especially if add any sort of even modest swell, all is likely to shift, and one need be attentive to lines and slack.

Beach legs are a fine answer too, for occaisiional bottom coat or scraping.
For a boat that is long term left on a hook unattended in a tidal bay, however, beach legs and//or cribbing is sooner or later going to end badly.
Again, Newfies know what they are doing, so dam eager for any ideas or suggestions.
Thanks.

[Brian]

Hi Porch,

Thanks for those links. Interesting.
The bilge keels in the link are not big enough to keep the boat level for grounding but sound like they are enough to dampen the rolling action.
I can only assume that ours being maybe not as long but quite deep also help reduce her rolling, but are deep enough to keep her level.
Maybe I should make mine longer!

[Porch]

Brian- this is the Albin site in Britain...

http://www.albin25.eu/

If you scroll down the page, the second photo [red hull, on a trailer] is of a twin keel Albin 25, very well done.- this one appears to be able to take the beach.

I think you must be right, the link I sent earlier portrayed keels for stabililty, not for beaching- and that likely explains why your keels are bolt-thru and the other boat's were not. Most center keel boats don't have to take a lot of the weight on the bilge plate, if sets down reasonably level athwartships on her center keel. The plates are just a bit shallower than center keel, so all the weight goes to center keel: same idea as a small man sticking out a leg and supporting a giant Harley- as long as he does not let the Harley lean too far, no problem, not a lot of weight on his leg, stability only.

But the center keel on the Albin 25 has that "swoop" to it, before the prop. That means the bilge plates have to be deeper than the center keel in order to take the beach properly, and so the plates must take all the weight- such as you describe your boat, I think.

Westerly, noted builder of British boats, has always bolted thru their twin keels [technically, the "three keels"- that is, center keel with two bilge plats- are "bilge keels"; if weight is supported by two keels only, she is a "twin keel"- but often today you see the terms used interchangeably]. Triple keels were the original concept, used notably on British life boats of earler age [and notable too in the old Tristan Jones books]. But trials by Westerly showed that twin keels actually performed better [as a sailboat] than bilge keels. Interestingly, though overwhelmingly popular in Britain and almost unheard of here, the concept only recently evolved- not more than 80 years ago [in Britain].

In any case, at the above link, the second photo is a twin keel Albin 25- note the lack of any cradle on the trailer, a nifty trailer setup. The first photo, though, as you scroll down the page, is of the little known Albin 26; and I agree with the person who submitted that photo: she's pretty ugly, to my eyes.

Photos on the lead page of this website rotate often- I hope you get to see the photos before they are switched out.

[Porch]

Here's a good photo if another Albin 25 upright on her center keel and her added keel plates. I doubt she would be level fore and aft though, without varying heights of wood dunnage fore and aft under her center keel.
http://cdn.boatshed.com/autoimage-14741 ... 00-300.jpg

[Brian]

Hi Porch,

These bilge keels look like ours...as do Dido's (the eu site). Were these an option from the factory? Maybe for the motorsailer version but also fitted to the standard boat as well?
If you're beaching the boat like we have, the slight discrepancies of keel shapes / depths will not be a problem on a sand/mud bar as it will stlle just fine.

[Porch]

Brian:
Re: photo, settling on keels, shoes:

Thanks too, for the photo.
And thanks indeed for the word about her leveling herself when you beach her.

I have asked that question of the British Albin forume, whether could have been factory made version with bilge plates, and the answer was a rather unequivocal "no"- and i've reviewed the original
70s Albin spec sheets and see no mention- but at same time, forum members there told me that many of Albins in use in Britain- perhaps even most- had the keel plates added later, no doubt professionally in many cases.

Dido too, originated from Britain, plates installed when current owner bought her [not much use for them in Mediterranean, I would guess, but still good stabilizers]

I am wondering if you have considered shoe-ing the keels?
You know, with copper or kevlar or stainless- to keep keels from scraping and wearing on the sand/gravel when she settles in with the tide?

[Porch]

Brian:
addendum to above:
2nd question, please- On magnifying photo of your boat, I see what appears to be an angled addition to the bilge plate itself [visible on the keel on boat's port side]. What am I looking at here, please? Could this be a sacrificial piece to accept the grinding when boat settles? How is it attached? Looks like it is angled off the keel itself, so that the joint, or apex, of that angle is holding all the weight if boat leans to that side- unless something is out of focus in what I am seeing- ?
Thanks.

[Brian]

Hi Porch,

There must have been a boat shop in England somewhere that retrofitted these bilge keels on these boats as they (ours, Dido's and the last link you posted) all look the same.
Our bilge keels measure 5'-9" long x 10.5" and are perpindicular to the hull so they angle out and measure 2' off of centerline at the tips.
I haven't thought about shoe-ing them with anything as when I do beach her, I do it in an area I know is sand or mud...and I try not to hit rocks!
I think what you're seeing in my last photo is the main keel's shoe beyond the port side bilge keel.
Brian

[Porch]

Brian you are right, that's what I'm seeing, thanks.
I will post a paraphrase of your comment on the British Albin forum: re: all these three added bilge keel plates being similar if not identical- I'll ask for more information regarding where the fit was done.
I'm curious myself. Will get back to you if I find anything verifiable.
Thanks.
Porch