Starting problems...need advice UPDATE

jcollins · Post by **jcollins** » Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:42 pm

We are waiting for the new inverter/charger but decided to enjoy the beautiful weather this weekend. The boat started right up and we headed out. We made a few stops at local hang-outs and the boat started with no problems. The last stop was at Maxwell point on the Gunpowder River. We were on the hook for about 3 hours and decided to head home. It took almost a minute of cranking to start the engine. It was to the point where the battery was loosing it's charge. Then it started and we made the 45 minute run home. No noticable problems. I'm keeping the boat at a marina waiting for the parts to come in Monday or Tuesday. Decided to give it one more try. No start! Just cranks. I waited about 15 minutes and tried again. Will not start. Batteries are going dead so I had to stop.
My first thought was water in the fuel? I did fill the tank last week but have run at least 10 hours since the fill up. Since I had the wife and dogs with me I didn't want to start tinkering.
I spoke with a neighbor and he had the same problem with his 300 Cummins. He said it sounds like the injectors need to be bled. He said air could be in the line.
So, my fellow Albin owners..any thoughts on where to begin?
Water? or Air? Change the fuel filters or bleed the injectors?

Any thoughts?

Post by **Denis** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:27 am

John, sorry for your troubles lately. You have the same engine I have I believe. The first thing to check is the bowl at the bottom of your fuel water seperator. Drain out what is in it to decide if you have a water or dirt problem. Do you use a bio-cide diesel fuel additive?
The second thing to check is the clum relay. That turns on the glow plugs with the first click of the key. When the plugs are hot and the glow plug light goes out is when you try to start the engine. If your glow plugs are not getting hot it will not start.
The third thing is the air in the line problem. The manual says to bleed the air out by loosening the fuel line at the secondary filter. Any remaining air should purge out on it's own.
The fourth thing is that you can call Peninsular directly, I have several times and they are very helpfull. If you need that number let me know, I keep it on the boat.

Post by **AlMar** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:31 am

Hate to start with the obvious john, but you DO have fuel water seperators, right? How often to you check/empty them? How long has the fuel been in the tank? You may need a biocide. (worked for me) Do you have the capability of switching tanks, or were they both filled at the same time? Did either tank ever get empty? If not, it's unlikely you have air in the line. Is the neutral safety switch working? I'm probably newer at this than you, but if a diesel cranks, it usually just needs air and fuel.
AlMar

Post by **AlMar** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:33 am

Sorry Dennis. I guess I was posting at the same time

AlMar

Post by **Denis** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:43 pm

AlMar, great minds think alike! HaHa

Post by **gerygarcia** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:09 pm

John

The first year I owned my 94 28TE I had a similar problem. I have a Peninsular, but this may help.

After running the boat for some time and anchoring, I had a very hard time starting up the engine. I eventually was able to get it started and couldn't figure out why there was a problem firing up the engine. I checked everything.

After speaking to Peninsular, they told me the problem was the glow plug heat sensor. They said the engine box of the 28 Albin is insulated so well that the sensor has a hard time knowing when to activate the glowplugs when the engine is still warm. They suggested a "override switch" to manually activate the glowplugs when the engine is too hot for the sensor to activate itself. (The said this is more prevalent on hot days)

I purchased the kit they suggested (I can't remember the exact cost but it wasn't that much) The kit contained some wiring, a switch and a small circuit box. I had my mechanic install it - It took about an hour because of the wiring and the installation of a switch on the instrument panel.

Ever since then, I manually activate the glowplug for about 8 seconds then turn over the key to start. The engine has started up on the first try ever since.

It was worth the cost just for the safety issue of stalling in a precarious situation and not being able to start up because of some sensor not knowing to activate your glow plugs.

Peninsular phone number:
1-800-942-0445 or
616-530-1298. I spoke to a guy named Matt. (This was a couple years ago though)
He was very helpful.

Perhaps this will help!

Gery Garcia

jcollins · Post by **jcollins** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:53 pm

Thanks for the quick replies...
Denis and Almar - Yes. Have the Racor filters. Funny you ask "how often". Last weekend I thought about it but got lazy and didn't. How often do you guys check them? I only have one tank and it has not gone empty. The previous owner told me he used Marvel Mystery Oil whenever he filled up. I did put some in LAST time but not this time. (same lazy weekend)
Is that the biocide you mention? And, forgive me for not knowing, but what is a clum delay?

Gery - Funny you mention that. I left one thing out of my post. This is the first weekend of 90+ degrees. The last stop was about 3 hrs. on the hook in the sun. By the way, I do have the Peninsular like yours.

I'll be back at the boat tomorrow and check everything mentioned.
Once question: If the fuel filter is filled with water, after I empty it, will that take care of things? Or is there something else to do before trying to start?

Post by **Denis** » Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:48 pm

John, looks like you got some good advice from the members.
I am not sure what the marvel mystery oil will do but the bio-cide will kill the organisms that grow in the fuel tank in hot weather. You should add it after every fillup as stated on the bottle. You can get it at the marina, boat store or a truck stop.
The clum relay turns on the glow plugs for a set period of time prior to start up. It is located on the port side under the engine cover, grey with a few wires going to it. It clicks loudly when you turn the key to warm up the glow plugs. It sounds like garygarcia might have the trick. If it's not a fuel problem or a battery problem, it might be that.
If the water separator is full, drain it and change the secondary filter, then bleed the fuel lines as stated in the manual. If it is full, you may need to change the primary filter also just to be sure.
The learning curve begins!

jcollins · Post by **jcollins** » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:17 am

So I went to the marina this afternoon. First check was the fuel filter. No water. It all looked good. Some small particles of dirt did come out so I'm guessing it's time to change the filters. Engine started right up even with the weak batteries. So, my second thought was the temperature and that's also the experience that gerygarcia mentioned. We both have the same engine so I'm assuming that's the problem. I will look into the switch if this happens again. I'm also assuming that I could open the engine box and just let it sit for an hour or so.
I did add a fuel conditioner that supposedly increases the cetane a little and helps with water. I let it run for about an hour and shut down. Then I added the biocide you guys mentioned.
To answer my own question - Marvel Mystery Oil is not a biocide. This is a response from Marvel Oil company.

"Thank you for your interest in Marvel Mystery Oil. In rresponse to your question, Marvel provides similar benefits to diesel fuel as it does to gasoline. With today's lower sulfur content (and going lower) in diesel fuel, Marvel Mystery Oil provides replacement lubrication lost by the decrease in sulfur levels. In also seems to reduce hard carbon deposit build-up and help increase fuel economy."

It's been around since WWII. There is quite a bit of information on the Internet about. My dad used it in his crankcase and as a fuel additive. I was surprised when the previous owner of Afterglow told me he used it. There are reservations about using it the crankcase on a regular basis because of it's low viscosity. (3w) But, some folks pour in a quart a few hours before an oil change.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for all your suggestions. I will not be lazy. I will check the fuel filters on a regular basis.

Tuxedo · Post by **Tuxedo** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:17 pm

Gery is exactly right. When I sold Albins, I had customers with the starting issues you described. Peninsular sent us a kit that basically moved the glow plug sensor away from the engine. That generally worked, but an over ride switch is a better solution.

Until you can install the kit, open the engine box and wait 10 minutes.

jcollins · Post by **jcollins** » Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:37 pm

Tom,
Thanks for your advice about leaving the cover open.
By the way, Welcome to the board! We are growing.

Post by **Denis** » Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:00 pm

John, sorry for the late question on this subject but where is the glow plug temp sensor? The clum relay is on the port side above the trans. but I don't know where the sensor is. My engine seems to start pretty well but I will say it is a little slow when it is warmed up and has been sitting for an hour. When we go to the fuel dock and need to shut it off I do worry that it will not start right away. Denis

jcollins · Post by **jcollins** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:11 pm

Denis wrote:John, sorry for the late question on this subject but where is the glow plug temp sensor? The clum relay is on the port side above the trans. but I don't know where the sensor is. My engine seems to start pretty well but I will say it is a little slow when it is warmed up and has been sitting for an hour. When we go to the fuel dock and need to shut it off I do worry that it will not start right away. Denis

Denis,
As I understand it that's it. Clum relay/glow plug sensor. If I wrong someone please correct me. This past weekend I had the problem again. This time, on the advice of others here and the the guy from Peninsular, I opened the cover and poured about 6 ounces of cool water over the relay. Waited 5 minutes and the engine started right up. He told me the glow plug light on the dash should stay on for 5-7 seconds. If not, don't even try. Just add water. (smile) The kit is 80.00. It will be on my fall todo list.

Post by **Denis** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:23 pm

John, thanks for getting back to me. From what the manual states, the clum relay is used on a lot of different models of diesel and is readily available and will be good to have one for a spare. Also something that sounds like a good idea to check from time to time is the condition of the glow plugs. Pull the wire off the glow plug and put a test lamp in series between the wire and the plug. Turn the key, if it lights the plug is good if not it needs to be replaced. My boat came with several spares so they must go bad. So far this year I have gone on several trips and I could not be happier with my engine, strong, smooth, efficient. It can't get any better. The water on the relay thing cracks me up. How about some insulation around it to shield it from the engine heat? Thanks, Denis

jcollins · Post by **jcollins** » Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:38 pm

Denis,
Your right...80.00 for the kit or a glass of water...hmmmm
As Tuxedo mentioned the kit moves the relay away from the engine. Thus, less heat. My guess is that the insulation trick has been tried and not effective. I don't know.
Thanks for the glow-plug-checking-tip. I'll keep that one. I don't remember how many hours you have on yours but when I mentioned that I was at 730 he told me I'm getting close to replacing the injection pump.
I don't know. All this is new to me and I am still learning. Now that the the "new boat" excitement is winding down, I have a feeling I'll catch up on learning all this stuff in the fall and winter.
Right now I'm looking forward to the raft-ups and redezvous.

Albin Owners Group

Albin Owners Group