Looking for a surveyor? Good Information Here

[dgurgel]

The following post is from our own Dave Gurgel. If your getting ready for a survey, this is a good read. Thanks Dave! - JC




I did three surveys before buying my Albin 28. I used http://www.marinesurvey.org/, SAMS, Society of Accredited Marine Surveyors to get some names and then emailed them. In my area, price was $20 per foot for survey and seatrial with seatrial on same day as survey. About six hours were required. Buyer usually pays for hauling the boat and pressure-washing the hull - $250 to $325. It is not unreasonable to expect a report 48 hours after the survey/seatrial is completed. The report will be 20 - 40 pages and will be mostly filler. The end of the report will have specific recommendations. I would tell the surveyor not to discuss the report with the broker without your OK. Check your agreement, but you should be the one to accept or reject, even if the surveyor thinks the boat and price are OK.

Be sure the surveyor does a lot of the type you are buying, i.e. power instead of sail, 25' - 50' boats, not ocean tugs and working trawlers. I always required an oil sample analyzed by a lab (add $75). Many surveyors will have pictures of recent surveys on their web site. Some are better than others on engines, so ask them about their engine experience. The surveyor will coordinate schedules and haulout location with the broker for you. The broker will furnish a licensed captain or the owner to drive the boat. You can get a marine policy one day in advance using Progressive or other online service. I pay about $975 per year for my 2000 TE with $300,000 combined single limit and $2,500 deductible. If you reject the boat, Progressive will refund 100%. Owner's insurance covers until you close.

Ask in advance for maintenance records so that they are available. Ask the surveyor if the engine zincs and hull zincs were replaced this season. You can check this yourself too. Changing zincs and oil change are basic things that must be done yearly in any reasonable maintenance program. Ask too to see at the survey manuals and other documentation on the boat and its equipment. (Almost all equipment and engine manuals are available on the web.)

The hull and the engine are the two big questions. Talk to the surveyor as he does the hull. Tell him you want to see all blisters or cracks. Mostly he will depend on eyesight and a sounding hammer. Moisture meters are used too but do not give much useful information unless the boat has been out of the water for more than a day.

If you can see the radar display and if the chart plotter is clear for chart and depth sounder/fishfinder, you are probably OK. Most surveyors will do little on electronics except report on whether they powered up and gave a reasonable display. If electronics have been replaced since 2005, you probably are not going to need anything for a while. Electronics have added lots of features and dropped sharply in price over the past ten years. The VHF radio will probably work, but you don't care very much since great radios are $200 or less. New chart plotters with GPS, fishfinder, and radar display are $1,500 to $4,000 before installation. You probably know the manufacturer of the chart plotter now. Go to the manufacturer's web site and look at the latest models. Old radars and old fishfinders usually will not work with new chart/plotters. Replacing radar and replacing fishfinder will add $1,500 for each item without installation costs. The chart/plotter is the heart of the electronics package.

If there is an anchor windlass, make them demo operation since many seldom use the anchor. Make them flush the head in your presence because a non-working head can be a major expense. Have then switch the fridge on, and feel the freezer after an hour. Engine appearance even on a 2000 boat should be almost like new with no rust or corrosion. You will want to see about 22 kt at wide-open throttle if the boat is an Albin 28. Speed is best read on GPS, but GPS speed is speed over ground (SOG) not speed through the water. Hull-mounted speed sensors are often very inaccurate, and GPS is accurate to less than 0.2 knots. Run speed trial one way and then reverse course. Average the two readings to get rid of current errors and some but not all of wind/wave effects, Look for good oil pressure (mid scale on gauge) and nearly constant engine temperature during the entire sea trial.

I would be happy to email you copies of two of my ALbin 28 surveys (the third was not a full survey), so you can see what a survey covers. I will need your email address to do this since I do not know how to attach large files to the AOG messages. Email to dgurgel at efaonline.com, the Internet address for my engineering firm, Energy For America, Inc. Get the Energy For America address on Google if the AOG software strips out the address in this reply.

Moderator note:: The survey mentioned above is attached.

[Yummy]

Thanks Dave, very helpful.

[psneeld]

My advice is that surveys are for the insurance companies if you know anything at all about boats.

The last 2 prepurchase surveys I had done missed some pretty important items like unsafe electrical connections to severe hull hydrolysis and blisters upon blisters. Yes I probably would have bought the boats anyway...but I could have negotiated better prices for sure. The last survey I was unable to attend because of timetable and distance (usually can happen with larger boats due to the distances involved with finding what you want)...but that will be my last as I would have and caught MANY more things that were written up.

Yet I had to scramble to satisfy the insurance companies before moving the boat with the HORRIBLE defects the surveyoys DID point out like "bubble in compass dome"..

While I agree that it's easy to miss some things...and I did get HIGHLY recommended surveyors....I would NEVER pay for a prepurchase survey again (only an engine surver with oil analysis) and whatever survey requirements the insurance company wants. The rest I will do myself.

[Captron]

I agree with Scott. Most surveys that I have had done list a lot of small stuff and miss the big things. Most boats over two years old have lots of 'deferred maintenance'.

If I'm interested in a boat, I do my own survey first. The expensive systems like the engine must be right but it takes a sea trial to prove an engine. Also I'd point out that a long list of little things can add up pretty quickly.

It also takes time to observe and measure the condition of a boat. The last boat I looked at, an Albin 27 FC was a maintenance nightmare but I only noticed certain things after looking at it for quite a while.

For example, the batteries were dead and we couldn't start the engine. I worked with the owner to try and isolate the problem for over an hour. Over this time I became aware of things I had overlooked initially. For instance, I noted that there was a red battery cable connected to a negative post and a black wire connected to a positive post. The owner explained that the black tape on the red wire meant negative and a smallish piece of red tape on the black wire meant positive. Then I realized that all of the battery cables and a good deal of other wiring (like bilge pumps) were wired using automotive grade stuff and because of that there were many green corroded connections. Also one bilge pump was wired directly to a battery with automotive stranded wire twisted around the battery post. Then I found an automotive fuse holder lying loose next to a battery with a green corroded wire and no terminal at all. I also noticed a negative (black) battery cable connected to a battery post but the other end was just lying loose in the engine compartment.

These are all signs of a poorly maintained boat. Unfortunately, most boats over a certain age will be poorly maintained. It takes knowledge and cash to properly maintain a boat and most owners don't bother or don't know what they're doing. I find it also true that the jury rig (well let's just getting going, we'll fix it later) tends to remain a jury rig.

Make a list of all of a boat's systems, engine, hull, sails, rigging, plumbing, electrical, etc. and really try to find the things that are wrong. The things that are right won't add or subtract from your cost of ownership. Every thing that's wrong will cost you.

I would highly recommend that you spend some time on David Pascoe's website http://www.yachtsurvey.com/ ... very educational.

[jprohan]

an excellent surveyor in S.Florida is Kurt Merolla.

[smacksman]

As a newcomer to the USA I found a survey very useful in pointing to querky requirements here. Labels - you LOVE labels here. A label for oil disposal. A label for rubbish disposal. A label for VHF. A label for ...
I agree with what the labels say (except rubbish - NO rubbish goes overboard no matter how many miles I am offshore)
A cable tie to lock the Y valve to only route heads waste to the holding tank. A cable tie - Wow - that will NEVER be cut.
A CO sensor located a minimum of 15 ft. from source of combustion in a 27 ft. boat. Can't remember the exact dimensions.
A fuse within 6" of all connections to a battery.
Diesel in yellow cans not red cans.
And more ...
Anyway, when we were inspected by the Coastguard on the ICW we came through with a clean sheet which felt good so the survey was worth it.

[Captnickm]

This is all very good information.

I just wanted to note a few extra things.

Make sure the surveyor is willing to let you follow him and work with him before you start. When you are calling find someone who is willing to talk to you about the boat you are interested in and seems to be outgoing. There are a lot of surveyors out there that say they want you to be there, but are very quiet and don't explain what they are looking at.

Also, make sure they surveyor does not inspect the boat unknowingly. Example: they show up the day before you and go over the boat or they show up early and start without you. There are surveyors out there that do this to speed up the process so they can just show you what they found real fast and be done early.

As mentioned most of the reports are "fluff". I always say if the report is over 20 pages the surveyor is just trying to sell paper to make his report look more thorough.

Make sure the surveyor is a boater himself and is a hands on type of person that has a passion for what they do. You would be surprised. There are a whole lot of surveyors out there that became certified by reading books about boats instead of spending time on them fixing and building them. There are a few here local that have never even owned there own boat. Example: you want a surveyor that not only surveys boats, but one that has done a little bit of everything in the industry that is well rounded in all aspects of boats.

Don't be afraid to ask for a sample survey of a similar boat. They can take a previous report and remove all the private information to give you a good sample.

Mentioned above make sure the surveyor is not working for the broker. You hired the surveyor and are paying him. The findings onboard are between you and him only. This a rule in SAMS and CPYB. Not all brokers and surveyors follow it though.

When you find the boat you like and go into contract your broker will give you a list of local surveyors. Make sure there are more than one or two surveyors on the list. If there are only one or two on the list your broker is trying to pull a fast one on you. Sometimes brokers only recommend surveyors that they know wont kill the deal or steer you away from the sale. It's best to call local repair companies or other boaters to find a recommended surveyor.

There is more and the list could go on, but this is a great topic.

[DCatSea]

While searching for 27FC I became interested in a boat north of New York (2014). I contacted Mr. Barnaby Blatch at Atlantic Marine Surveys.

This was a great experience. Not only is he a sailor, he is also a fellow Brit (not pushing the brand here) but also very talkable to. I commissioned him to carry out a survey, but before the intended date he contacted me to say that he had "taken a quick look at the boat" while in the area on another survey. He made several very interesting comments about the overall "can see it" condition of the vessel, and recommended I look elsewhere. There was no charge, and he cancelled our agreement to survey.
I believe this to be almost unheard of in the Marine Survey field, and I would not hesitate to recommend Mr. Blatch as an honest and knowledgeable Marine Surveyor.

[Kimotee]

Recently purchased Albin 28 TE Newport 2009 and used Jim Hilton, http://www.ebcsmarine.com, his history with Albin goes back to his childhood when his dad was a broker for Albin in Tiverton, RI. His brother runs Standish Boat Yard & Marina. If you are in the NE and need a surveyor, think you will be well pleased with Jim's work. He is personable, responsive, and detailed oriented. The boat we bought had a survey done for the previous owner, and it was pretty much worthless to us. Jim took us thru the boat step-by-step and answered all questions along with providing a solid survey report.

[Albesaurus]

I used Jim at Ecbs Marine after reading this post. As mush as i agree that Jim knows his Albin’s from a long history selling them. I believe i would have been served better using another accredited marine surveyer. He missed several obvious things. Stuff i should have noticed myself but i trusted him.

[DCatSea]

I have just had Dave Bradley of Coast to Coast Surveys do an insurance upgrade survey of Mazboot. This was an in-water survey.
Dave arrived on time, with everything he needed to do a thorough survey. The final report was delivered the next day as a well-written PDF. Close to 300 photographs were taken, and I doubt if there is an inch of the boat that is not recorded.
Dave covered the entire vessel and at the end made “layman’s language” suggestions regarding work needed (nothing serious and not a lot, thankfully).
I was impressed with his professionalism. I also feel that I know a lot more about Mazboot’s (above average) condition.

[Jeremyvmd]

If you need an amazing surveyor on the east coast (he pretty much goes anywhere on the coast) I can’t recommend Al Priscoe highly enough. Very detail oriented, careful and methodical. Very honest too (even with me when I wanted to continue a survey when he had already found enough reasons to walk away, he’s definitely a new Yorker lol). Even though I didn’t end up buying the boats he looked at I was very very happy with his services. If I can say one bad thing is that he’s not a member of sams or nams. Which will be an issue on my next survey as the only lender I found that would write the loan requires nams or sams. But if it wasn’t for that he would be my first choice. Great guy to deal with