Anyone tried enlarging rudder on 25 motorsailer?

[neilrewiredvt]

I have heard many times that the Albin 25 is just not a very sail-able boat and that is often the reason stated for dismantling the mast etc. and going straight cruiser.

I recently heard someone say that if the rudder was considerably enlarged that in fact it did become a very good sailing vessel.

Has anyone tried messing with rudder and if so, what kind of results did you get?

Thanks
Neil

[Mark Deeser]

Hi Neil, interesting question. In most mechanical applications it seems to be systems built on systems, by that I mean it was engineered to handled the stress placed on each component part placed on it by the other parts. It could create a failure point by oversizing the stress produced by oversizing the rudder. Wouuld you want to go deeper into the water to add authority during heeling, or have some other objective ? I feel you would be more likely to find a larger knowledge base on a sailing form. Please share your findings, sure other 25 owners would be interested in your conclusions. Thanks, Mark.

[DesertAlbin736]

Not sure rudder size is the problem. More likely the shallow keel and lack of weighted ballast is. Since the A25 depends on hull shape for stability (hence the tendency to roll in a beam sea), by necessity it carries less sail area than a true sailboat of the same size. So a) shallow keel means it won't point well up wind, and b) small sail plus drag of the big prop means you're not likely to get more than 4 knots on a beam reach.

We have the full mast and sail rig that came with our boat but have never used it, and we know how to sail having come from 18 years of trailer sailing experience. Other than helping dampen the roll rate, it's more trouble than it's worth putting the mast up unless we were going to keep the boat in the water full time which we aren't.

[JT48348]

I think there's a lot of misinformation on the sailing performance of the A25, proceed with caution. I wouldn't modify one thing until you actually sail it yourself and see how good or bad it performs. I think you will be surprised with what you find.

First, finding someone who has actually sailed one of these is difficult. Finding actual photos, video, or credible accounts is extremely difficult. There are some owners who have the mast and sail rig but never actually rigged or sailed the boat. And there are even fewer who even sailed it one time before they supposedly scrapped the idea. I would value these accounts accordingly.

Second, the Albin 25 manual is very clear about the purpose and effectiveness of the sail rig and what can be expected. Yet despite this people still call the boat a "motorsailer" and pontificate whether it sails well, etc.

This boat has been cruised and "sailed" with success in Europe. There are other boats like it and as successful. It has a very particular intent and purpose that does not necessarily fit conventional American "motorsailing" ideas.
It's a good idea to understand its intended purpose and not make judgements or formulate opinions outside that limited use.

[DesertAlbin736]

On of these days when I can find that elusive 'round tuit' I'll set up the mast & sail and try it out. My biggest fear in stepping the mast is that ours has is the early version where the step is right up against the windshield and I'm afraid one slip and the windshield would get damaged.

[WillieC]

"This boat has been cruised and "sailed" with success in Europe. There are other boats like it and as successful. It has a very particular intent and purpose that does not necessarily fit conventional American "motorsailing" ideas.
It's a good idea to understand its intended purpose and not make judgements or formulate opinions outside that limited use."

Almost everything A25 does not fit Conventional American Ideas. Otherwise these boats would burn 10 gallons an hour instead of .5. Perspective, folks, perspective. I love the world at 6 kts. Thanks, JT.

[JT48348]

Just by coincidence there was an excellent post today from someone on the Yahoo Albin Group. I would second the description of the A25s sailing characteristics as it matches exactly the other European descriptions of boats like the A25 and what's mentioned in the A25 manual. I would only differentiate that what when we call the A25 a motorsailer in the USA what we really talking about is an "auxiliary sailer." I've mentioned it before in my A27 mast thread. An auxiliary sailer is a boat that motors primarily but benefits on occasion from a sail rig.

The below post came from Neil on the Yahoo group. Good stuff
****

"OK... I spent 12 hours over the weekend cruising/motoring/sailing in a rigged A 25 (see attachment). After plenty of "testing" in various winds and speeds and waves, I have come to the following conclusions:
1. AS you all stated, if you want a sailboat get a sailboat. This is a motorsailer combining the words motor and sails notreally a cruiser and not really a sailboat.
2. The mast and sails on Bert's boat make a significant difference in the ride compared to a stripped cruiser. With even just the mast up (not sail) the amount of roll is significantly decreased. Taking a wake wave broadside results in a considerable decrease in how much and how dramatically the boat rolls. She seems to take the first lean and then just nicely return to verticle without a lot of that back and forth rolling that I experience in my non-mast boat. With the main up, that roll is slower and even more gentle.
3. with the main sail and the motor on about 1100 rpm in a mild breeze we cruise along at about 6 mph using almost zero fuel. If and when we needed to come about or otherwise maneuver the boat, the prop pushing on the rudder moved the boat to exactly where we wanted to be. We found that we could overpower the wind and basically invalidate any wind assist by jacking the speed but if we kept the RPM'S down and not try to push the speed up, wind assist was definitely a factor.
By adding the Jib we got just a tad more speed and we could again drop the rpm a bit and still maintain our approximate 6 mph. By controlling the jib and main we found that we could usually get some wind assist regardless of wind direction and maintain the heading that we wanted to be on.
Conclusion:
The added mast and sails provide two things to the boat
a. wind assist when you are not in any big hurry (keep the motor on low RPM to help with steering
b. stabilization - without main sail you get some just from the mast but with the main sail even just hanging you get added stability on rolls. (There is a whole section on the technical aspects of this also in the Owner's Manual that is in the files)
c. The Albin 25 is what it is = motor sailor . Now there appears to be a new category: you can go sailing or you can go cruising or you can go motorsailing..... each one is different with different applications."