Prospects for a Volvo Penta MD 17 C or repowering

[WillieC]

Volvo engine and tranny is closer to 650 lb, plus 20 gallons of fuel, plus weight of tank...1000 pounds is a nice round number.

(I am wracking my brain in the middle of the night and I just found 2 huge errata in the MD3B workshop manual regarding compression adjustment. OK, now I can sleep.)

[DesertAlbin736]

Someone up here was working on an electric A25 project but I have not heard anything about it for a while. I do remember that the motor takes up very little room. Given that electric motors develop full torque at zero rpm you may not need the same horsepower as a diesel. You only need enough torque to spin the prop at max rpm which would be about 1000 rpm.

From the AOG Way-Back machine (2014) a previous discussion on the subject:

Mark Deeser wrote on 9/12/14

This may sound like crazy talk, and it may well be. I have thought if the engine in my 27' Albin ever failed I would look at going electric. We have a 15 person ferry (state run) here on the St John River, pilot said the motor was five horse power. He said they recharge it overnight, has two solar panels on roof of unknown wattage was told it was in use for a twelve hours per day, no recharging. What if you installed small diesel, twenty horsepower or so running a generator, possible four large six volt golf cart batteries for day use. This tied to a ten to fifteen horsepower electric motor would most likely be all that is needed, or go crazy and add 100 watts solar. Seems to me you would have a system with plenty of power, that would operate on peanuts, and except for batteries could last as long as you do. This type of set up is starting to pop up on sailboats, no noise, no smell, no vibration, sounds like a cruisers dream. I'm sure there are many far more knowledgeable than I who can see the pitfalls in this plan. To my retirement quality brain it sounds ok. Thanks for listenings to the rantings of an old man.

Don123 replied:

Let's do the math - As Richard Dreyfuss so famously, said, "you're gonna need a bigger boat!" . . . . well, at least you're gonna need a LOT more batteries!

One horsepower is about 750watts. To run a one horsepower engine for an hour requires 750 watt hours - A 10 hp engine would eat up 7,500 watt hours

A pair of 6 volt golf cart batteries in series will provide 12 volts at 200 amp hours and then they are dead, dead. You never cycle deep cycle batteries below about 30% state of charge if you want them to live for another day, so 70% of 200 amps is 140 amps. 140 amps times 12 volts is 1680 watts. You can get that for about an hour, so 1,650 watt hours

Lets suppose you had ten sets of golf cart batteries instead of just one pair . . . . Twenty 6 volt, 200 AH batteries in total which would give you 1680 usable watts times 10, or 16,800 watts. This would run your 7,500 watt 10 hp motor for . . . . a little over two hours and if the 10 hp electric motor would power your A-27 to 5 knots (it probably wouldn't, BTW) then you could go 10 nautical miles in about two hours before it was time to recharge

The recharge - Assuming you plugged into a 120 volt outlet at the nearest marina, you could expect to get 15 or 16 amps of 120 volt power from that outlet, which is about 2,000 watts. To recharge the 15 Kw you used in your 2 hour cruise would require 7 to 8 hours and then you could move on for another 2 hours and go (possibly) another 10 nautical miles

You could double that to 20 sets of batteries (40 total at about 50 pounds each, or 2,000 pounds of batteries) and they would cost you about $4K and *maybe* last you 3 or 4 years depending on usage before they would need to be replaced . . . . and then you could go maybe 20 nautical miles before you'd need another very lengthy recharge

Solar? You could fit about six or eight 5 amp solar panels on the roof of your A-27 (assuming you extended the roof all the way to the transom) so on a good day with full noontime sun you would be making 40 amps at 12 volts which is 480 watts. Your solar panels would require about 30 hours (of noontime sun) to recharge the 15 Kw you used on your two hour cruise

Long story short - What is 'semi-practical' for a sailboat which can go 90% of the time on sail power alone doesn't necessarily translate very well to a cruising trawler which requires engine power to move it 100% of the time . . . . at least not if you plan to go very far

It does work a little better for an electric car - I own one which has a 16 Kw battery and that will take me about 75 miles, depending on terrain, speed and driving habits. With a 240 volt, 15 amp charger, I can replace that 16 Kw in about 6 hours and be ready to go again - We usually do that overnight

Don

The thread goes on & you can read more here:
http://www.albinowners.net/aog/viewtopic.php?t=7612

This YouTube vid is more apropos & interesting (note that it encorporates what looks like a 2GM20 16HP Yanmar diesel hybrid setup)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fArbuxgbGVM

The web site the guy in video mentioned: $$$$$!!!

https://electricyacht.com/electric-sailboat-motors/

Not taking a position here, just more food for thought, but a few points,

A) Given the above discussion, a diesel electric hybrid solution ( fewer batteries needed, like in the video) would be more practical in terms of range potential
B) In order to for a hybrid system to fit in engine box the diesel engine would have to be smaller, 2 cylinder 10 to 15 HP like in the video.
C) Other than for short hops you'd most often be running on a small diesel, less than a third of the MD17C's HP, that wouldn't push you much above 5 knots, less against stiff wind & currents. Remember, these are aimed at being sailboat auxiliaries, and as you know, for sailors 6 knots is about as fast as they go.
D) The motor Electric Yachts recommends (Find-A-Boat page) is this 10 KW/13HP QT10 model, MSRP $5,995. They have bigger motors up to 60 KW (80 HP), but the 20 KW (26 HP) costs $9,695 for the motor kit alone, not counting batteries, wiring, and chargers, and the 30 KW (40HP) costs $12,995, so you're right up there with cost of new diesel.

qt10-with-components.jpg

[DesertAlbin736]

Here's another treatise on electric conversion in a sailboat which had 12 HP diesel & going to equivalent HP pure electric, which from what the man said would be about 10KW.

Part 1, installation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Y1_TSdR2j4

Part 2, operation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gj9ho8v8XuI

In this setup he installed eight 6V batteries to get 200 amp hours at 48 Volts. At $300 to $400 each (AGMs) that's $2,400 to $3,200 just for batteries. Then there are the cables & fabricating mounting boxes.

From the label on the controller it appears at least the controller came from this supplier.

http://www.clean-e-marine.com/

Now in this case if he has 200 Amp-hours at 48V and the motor is 10,000 watts, at 48 volts it's drawing 10,000/48 = 208 amps. If it's 95% power factor that's actually 219 amps. Less than 1 hour range at full power or 2 hours at "half" throttle.

In the 2nd video the guy said that "running at 3 to 3.5 knots" he gets about 4 hours running time on a charge or about 90 minutes under full power at 5 or 6 knots. But it's a sailboat. Cast off from the dock, motor out to open water, set sail (& get some regen from prop milling while running under sail if the winds are good), then motoring back to the dock after dropping sails when near the marina.

One interesting thing about the operation video is how it's used with a sailboat. It looks like he's in Seattle (Seattle Boatworks hat) & maybe on Lake Union. But our experience, and this might not be true for Charleston, is that up in the San Juans & Gulf Islands during summer winds are often light & contrary and so most of the sailboats we see are motoring like 80% to 90% of the time with sails furled.

My bottom line take is that which ever way, pure electric or hybrid, it's going to end up being just as expensive if not more so as repowering with a new diesel engine and end up with less range and speed but quieter running.

[nebulatech]

Hi DA!

I'm 100% in agreement with your observations. From my nearly 200 hours of research, you're pretty spot on. I've watched both the videos you linked to, along with over a dozen others. They all say about the same thing. The outlier is the gentleman with the "electric tolleycraft" (search the quotes in youtube), whom I've been in contact with. Of course, his boat is big, so plenty of displacement for batteries.

I'm aiming to start with a 72 volt system (using 6 volt golf cart batteries, more amps for the money) with a target run time of 4 hours. 232 amp hours, 800 lbs, counting the motor. COmpared to 650lb motor and tranny, + 20 gallons of diesel, 160 lbs, we are in the same neighborhood. Cost of $1800 for batteries.
https://www.batteryprice.com/product-p/gc2-xhd-utl.htm

Motor kit ( $2,442):
https://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/18kw-l ... t-kit.html

Customers have used this in boats with 25K pound displacement.

Add another $1000 - $1500 for misc stuff to make it work, cables, mounting plate, etc.

It's getting close to the cost of a Beta 38HP (around $9k), but not quite. I'm the mechanic in either scenario, so installation costs aren't a factor. It's not about saving money (I won't). Once I'm comfortable with what range to expect, I can consider the case of setting up two battery banks (smaller ones) and charging the inactive one on a small generator. I can also consider one of the lithium variants, which have about 3x the energy density (at 3-5 times the cost). There are many options. This stuff is relatively new to the mass market.

Some observations on your comments:

* In my experience, MOST sailboats motor most of the time. That's why I bough a trawler.
* Power consumption increases/decreases exponentially as a function of speed. In the 2nd video linked above, listen to the dialog around 7:20, where range jumps up to 4 hours at the reduction of speed of .7 knots. So running 1/2 speed translates into much more than 2x range.
* I believe the sailboat in the video has about twice the displacement of an A25.

At any rate, once I'm ready to start the conversion, I'll start a new thread with lots of details.

Finally, all electric or diesel electric isn't for everybody, and I'm not an eco crusader. This is just something I want to do.

[DesertAlbin736]

Finally, all electric or diesel electric isn't for everybody, and I'm not an eco crusader. This is just something I want to do.

Starting from a clean slate to make the boat your own the way you want it is what it's all about. We'll be eager to follow your progress. Keep a journal, document your progress, take lots of pictures along the way, keep us posted.

Anyway, I'm curious, when you went to pick up your boat was it this one in Portsmouth, VA? It looks similar to your photos (details like lack of canvas, position of whip antenna, color of bottom paint, size, shape, & location of name board on the side of the wheelhouse, apparent missing windshield glass, stern rail that goes all the way across instead of split like many from later years, similar 400+ mile distance from Charleston. ) If it is, would be interested to see how & where you can find a source of curved automotive windshield glass made to fit that opening.

AlbinPortsmouthVA.jpg

AlbinPortsmouthVA2.jpg

AlbinenginePortsmouthVA.jpg

https://www.smartmarineguide.com/L49540739

Oh yes, and welcome to the obsession.

[tribologist]

interesting discussion. I would love having an electric Albin 25 but I would not go for it unless it had at least 5 hour of range at 7 mph. Even that is low. I have some days where I left at 7am and stopped at 4 pm but I could possibly live with 5 hours but the issue then is if you will have 30A or 50A shore power when you arrive. I guess it depends on how you plan to use it but I like doing DA stuff. eg trailer it somewhere and then go cruising. I would hate having battery anxiety.... I had Diesel Anxiety once when I realized that Diesel is not common on the rivers.. I ended up taking a Uber to Tractor Supply Co, got a 5 gal Diesel can and filled it at a gas station. Took a significant tip to convince the uber driver to let me bring the filled can..

We live in Connecticut and have gone up to Syracuse in the canals, up to Lake Champlain and also a trip to NYC.

I have a somewhat different installation in mine. I have an industrial/farm use Isuzu 3CB1. Its essentially the same engine as a Yanmar 3YM30. two owners ago a diesel mechanics had the boat and he re-powered from a MD17 to the Isuzu. He made a rather simple water cooled exhaust elbow and got a cooler from a Onan genset (I just got a replacement heat exchanger on ebay for $300. The tranny is a ZF10. I think you can find a 3CB1 pretty cheap if you look around. They are (were) common on light towers.

It takes some effort on making an adapter plates for the transmission and welding up engine mounts but I can help with documentation from mine on drive plates, engine mounts, water pump installation etc if you like to go that way. It is a significant undertaking no matter what way you go. The big check for a Beta is up in the $15K.
If you don't have a machine shop and a welder and the skills that goes with it It would be rather frustrating to go the industrial engine path too. Re-sale is hurt by having a non standard engine. In my case the value of the boat probably increases with time. The more hours I put on it the better the reliability numbers get. The 3CB1 can run for up towards 30,000 hours in generator duty before it is getting hard to start.

Ulf

[WillieC]

Very compelling, Driftless. Would love to see pics of your installation. You are correct about all the details, especially the conversion plates. Years, decades, millennia ago, I looked into converting a mid 70s VW bus to a water cooled engine. There was one engineering outfit that made an adapter plate for one of the little v6 engines available at the time. It was too much for us to take on...and you still ended up with a VW. I should have bought an Albin then.

[motthediesel]

Years, decades, millennia ago, I looked into converting a mid 70s VW bus to a water cooled engine. There was one engineering outfit that made an adapter plate for one of the little v6 engines available at the time. It was too much for us to take on...and you still ended up with a VW. I should have bought an Albin then.

That's Kennedy Engineering, they're still in business, and by using their product you can still hang just about any engine onto an aircooled VW/Porsche gearbox. I used one to fit a VW turbodiesel into my 356.

[DesertAlbin736]

Tom says:

I used one to fit a VW turbodiesel into my [Porche] 356.

How cool is that!

Ulf says:

I guess it depends on how you plan to use it but I like doing DA stuff...We live in Connecticut and have gone up to Syracuse in the canals, up to Lake Champlain and also a trip to NYC.....I had Diesel Anxiety once when I realized that Diesel is not common on the rivers.

First, I always appreciate being mentioned in a complimentary manner. Second, I still have much research to do on fuel availability for our own planned rivers/canals/lakes trip this coming summer. I have two 5 gallon jerry cans inherited from previous owners that I can lash to the rails on the foredeck. And if I add two more that would double my total fuel tankage to 40 gallons & by limiting RPM to 2,000 & speed to 5 knots means my fuel burn rate would be 0.4 GPH and extend range to 440 NM with no less than 5 gallons reserve. Just one trip to a gas station to refill two of those jerry cans would add another 125 miles of range.

When we bought our boat six years ago I thought this bowsprit arrangement for hanging spare fuel cans was insane, so I shortened the bowsprit but kept the cans.

0306141616.jpg

I ran across a YouTube by a Canadian couple transiting the Erie Canals and they showed a neat no muss, no fuss trick for transferring fuel from jerry cans to main fuel tank deck fill. What that guy did was make a siphon rig by taking a wood or rubber bung and drilling two holes through it. Through one hole he inserted a copper pickup tube extending to bottom of can and attached a length of clear hose to that long enough to go into the fuel tank deck fill. Then inserted a shorter tube through the other hole in the stopper to which a short length of hose is clamped. Then when ready to transfer the fuel you stick hose from the pickup tube into the deck fitting & blow on the other tube to create pressure within the jerry can to start the flow. Once fuel starts to flow that establishes the siphon, and voila, the fuel drains into the tank all by itself, no risk of spillage, no pumps needed. Sort of like a reverse "Arkansas credit card".

triangleloopmap.jpg

Still haven't heard from nebulatech if the A25 pictured above is the one he bought or not.

[WillieC]

Kennedy Engineering! That was it! I got the full printed low down from them way before such things as pdfs and the interweb. Very cool stuff. Surely they could assist in fitting another tranny to the MD17C? It is the one thing on the WillieC I haven't touched. Knock frp.

[nebulatech]

The big check for a Beta is up in the $15K.

http://soundmarinediesel.com/betagenuk.shtml

Joe, the owner of Sound Marine Diesel, claims they are the lowest priced US dealer of Beta Marine. He told me he also owns an Albin 25.

He says the Beta 38 is around $11 - $12K, just wanted to clarify.

DA, sorry, I've been tied up (not literally). That's an old listing from one of those web-scraping sites. I bought my boat in the water. There are similarities, but I couldn't say for sure. I'm afraid you've seem more A25's up close than I have. May have been where the PO acquired it. There are apparently a few A25's in the Chesapeake region, according to the A25 FB page. Why do you ask?

Regarding the electric repower, I'm planning for March. I'll be starting a new thread at that time. The total cost, not counting genset, is under $5k. The same dealer above sells a 3.5k genset for about $5k-6k, uses .2 gph, generates 30amps 120vac, same as a shore power connection. That's probably the long term plan once I figure out battery draw, so I can figure out the right bank size.

[DesertAlbin736]

There are apparently a few A25's in the Chesapeake region, according to the A25 FB page. Why do you ask?

Just curious. Back in 2015 we cruised for 2 weeks on the mid Chesapeake (Solomons, Cambridge, Oxford, St. Michaels) as well as a stretch on the Erie Canal in NY & Block Island Sound in Rhode Island and the only A25's we saw were the two parked in the Sound Marine Diesel shop yard in Connecticut and one on the Erie Canal. We did see one A27 on St. Leonards Creek off the Patuxent, but that was it. Would have spent more time on the Bay but due to other scheduling during that trip we were limited to the time between June 22nd & July 8th. Our original plan was to run up the Potomac River to DC in time for July 4th, but it was just so miserably hot & humid we scrapped that plan & cut the cruise short to two weeks.

The A25 in the 'web scraping' ad looked so much like yours in some of the small details couldn't help but wonder. Of course the hulls all look the same, but almost all have some custom mods from minor to major, from hard tops added to placement of VHF whip antennas, small variations in stern rails, etc. Maybe it was the ad the PO's bought from?

Speaking of Joe & Sound Marine Diesel we actually stopped by his shop in early June, 2015 but he was out that day & we didn't get to meet him, just his employee that was minding the store. It's actually a very small mom & pop operation.