Battery Charging Help

[Paddy]

This season, like last season, my boat does not appear to be taking a charge from onboard charger, only after a weekend of usage with the house batteries set to BOTH do they appear to be fully charged. I have 2 4D Interstate Marine house batteries, age 7/11 and a 2012 blue top optima battery as a starting battery. This weekend, I pulled the 4D's, added distilled water, and cleaned all terminals.

Here's the problem...I have a separate ON/OFF battery switch for the starting battery and another 1/2/Both/Off for the house batteries. A label on the switch says "Switch to both for emergency start." The Alternator positive goes to a positive bus where the 4D house batteries are connected, and I believe the starting battery, but the starting battery only appears to take a charge from the alternator when the battery switch in on BOTH. From what I read, I should be on 1 or 2, not both for normal use. Could this be the correct setup?

My other problem is that the #2 house battery is not taking a full charge, even though the Pro Mariner Protect-4 charger is working. With no load, I am reading 14.7V at the charger and with the batteries connected, I am at 12.5V at the bus terminals. It's almost like the charger is sensing that the #1 battery is full and just maintaining it. Which leads me to my last topic of confusion- I also have an Xantrex Echo Charge connected to the same positive bus. According to the website, The Echo Charge maintains the starting battery by using the house batteries, invertor or other source. Shouldn't the positive feed be connected directly to the Optima starting battery?

The charger is set for lead batteries with the absorption charge set at 2 hours.

Battery #2 is connected in parallel with #1 (I believe). On battery #1, I have positive jumper going to the positive on #2. For negative side of #1, I have a cable going to the negative bus and another jumper cable to the negative side of #2. Lastly, I have a positive cable from #2 to the positive bus. Note that the #1 battery does not have any positive cable going the positive bus, just the jumper to #2.

So I have a charging issue with starting battery and the #2 battery does not appear to be taking a charge. Help?

[crowra]

Rob,

It sounds like your house batteries are 'one big battery' since they are connected in parallel. If you look at the back of your house battery switch, there should be one red cable connected to either '1' or '2' since you really only have 'one house battery'. If there is a red cable on both '1' and '2', I'm willing to bet they run to the same source. The 'both' terminal most likely connects to both your starting and house battery (for an emergency to use your house batteries to start the engine if your starting battery is dead). Under normal operations, it should never be set to both. If it is, both starting battery and house battery will be charging/discharging together. If you really did have a '1' or '2' option, house battery #1 would run to the #1 terminal and house battery #2 would run to the #2 terminal (and they would not be wired in parallel) and there would be three red cables from both house batteries connecting to the starting battery switch terminal. See if you can trace the cables from your starting and house battery switch terminals and see where they connect.

Your house batteries and starting battery should not be charging from the same source. You probably already know this but your house batteries will discharge more while your starting battery barely discharges at all when starting the engine. Here's my set-up and recommendation. Have all sources: charger, alternator, shore power, generator, etc. charge only your house batteries. And the Xantrex Echo Charger should be powered from your house batteries and charge your starting battery separately. The Echo Charger has three wires: one (red wire) connects to your house batteries (or positive bus), one (black wire) connects to ground and one (forget color but labeled 'starting battery') connects to your starting battery. You can connect the Echo Charger to the terminals (red cable) on the back of your Engine and House Battery switches vs. running to battery terminals. The voltage drop will be negligible if anything at all. Just make sure both are 'hot' (hope that made sense). Your starting battery should only connect to your engine (solenoid) via on/off switch and not your positive bus where the house batteries are connected to.

If you want to test everything, turn off your shore power and let the batteries 'rest' for a while and go down to 12.7 volts. Check all three battery voltages using a volt meter. Turn on your shore power and check your house batteries (give it a few minutes). They should be over 13.6 volts maybe even up to 14.n. Next check your starting battery. If the Echo Charger is wired correctly, your starting battery will be above 12.7 volts -- most likely 13.something. The Echo Charger will charge your starting battery through the full spectrum (bulk, absorption, float) of charging.

Hope that's clear as mud.

Rob

[Paddy]

Thanks Rob, I re-read my post and confused myself, so I'm glad you understood it!

I definitely want both house batteries on separate switches and charging separately, so I will rewire there. I also understand what you are saying about the Xantrex, I will dedicate it for the starting battery with the juice coming off the positive bus.

What I'm still baffled at is the lack of charging, or appearance of no charge evident from the shore power / charger. The previous owner wired the 2x charger feeds and Xantrex into the positive bus. Are they isolated and if not, wouldn't that set-up along with the "one big battery" and AGM Optima battery confuse the charger?

At this point, I can say with some certainty that the only way I am charging everything is off the alternator feed. I went out at 70% capacity on the meter and came back fully charged after a full day of use. With the charger and shore power plugged in overnight, the meter never moved.

Thanks again, your response was very helpful.

[RobS]

Rob #1 - LOL, you had my confused and then I got side-tracked and never made it back. Sounds like they are not isolated if they are all indeed outputting to the same bus bar. That part is not a difficult fix.

Rob #2 - Thanks for the detailed reply

From,
Rob #3

[crowra]

Rob #1,

Do you have an inverter? Figured I would ask to start more confusion.

The reason you may not be seeing any charging when plugged into shore power is your charger may be tango uniform (dead). If your house batteries are connected in parallel, they only need one charging source. Your charger, alternator, etc. will charge both batteries. If you want to charge them separately, they shouldn't be set up in parallel. Not sure why you would want to do it that way, or maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

Without actually seeing your setup and tracing cables, I can't figure out why the PO set up 2x charger feeds to the positive bus. The charger should be connected directly to your house battery (using singular since it's one big battery). And one wire (red) from the Echo Charger to the positive house batt terminal (either batt or switch terminal). I guess it's OK to connect to positive bus but I'm not an electrician.

The way your setup sounds, not only is your charger confused but all three Robs are confused!

Good luck,
Rob #2

[Paddy]

I have to say, the previous owner was meticulous and didn't skimp on anything, so I'm surprised by the wiring. I just had an "ah ha moment" while thinking this through- my thruster always dies quickly when the house batteries are set on #2. The PO must have wired both house batteries on #1, with a jumper from the starting switch to the #2 house battery. This whole time I've been wiping out the Optima battery with the thruster, not good. This also answers my question as to why I thought the second battery is never charging.

It's all making sense now. Thankfully, I didn't pull the trigger and order new 4D batteries.

Thanks "Robs"

[Paddy]

Rob #2,

I do have an inverter, but honestly, I have never used it. 99% of the time we day cruise and plug in when we get back to the dock. Last weekend, I flipped from shore to inverter as part of snooping around, and I did hear the inverter fan kick on, so I assume it works. How should the inverter be wired as part of the bigger equation?

thanks,

Rob #1

[Paddy]

Sorry, one more question for Rob #2...I'm confused by your response, is parallel the preferred set-up with one charger feed or is split by the A/B switch the preferred setup with 2 charging feeds? With either scenario, should the alternator lead be going directly to the bus?

[crowra]

The inverter gets power from two sources: shore and house batteries. OK, three if you have a generator. When plugged into shore power, it automatically bypasses the inverter and supplies 120 AC the AC panel. When you turn off shore power, it should automatically supply AC to the AC panel (not sure how yours is configured though). I'm surprised you heard a fan kick on. A fan usually only kicks on when under a heavy load -- like when a hair dryer or coffee maker is plugged in. Otherwise, you shouldn't hear anything from a small draw. And you probably have more than one AC panel. Typically you will have one or two AC panels (depending on if you have one or two 30-amp supplies). And a sub-panel for the inverter. The one or two AC panels will only be live when plugged into shore power and are for your heavier loads -- air conditioner, water heater, etc. The AC sub-panel (off the inverter) typically only powers outlets. There's a nice diagram on page 9 in this link to help explain what I mean:

http://magnumenergy.com/wp-content/uplo ... es_Web.pdf

So now it's getting a little more complicated. Your house battery supplies DC to your inverter (for AC) and DC bus (for 12-volt systems). Plus you mentioned a bow thruster which probably has a dedicated battery near the bow. And your thruster battery, like your starting battery, should be charged separately as well.

If your house batteries are in parallel, they should only be charged by one source at a time since they will be discharged and charged at the same rate. (I'm sure Nigel Calder would argue that there is a slight difference and rotating your house batteries annually might extend their life a little but that's too much work for me to get an extra deep cycle or two). Meaning either charged by your alternator or charger when plugged in. The best way to figure out your A/B, Off/1/2/Both switch is to look at the terminals on the back and trace the cables to their source. If the DC bus you have been referring to is the one in the picture, the three red cables that are attached to the bus may be charger, house batteries, DC panel (or maybe thruster battery). The alternator is probably connected somewhere else to charge your house batteries: either on one of the switch terminals or directly to your house batteries.

[Paddy]

OK Robs, I came home with full intentions of looking at the batteries / charger wiring, but the south shore of Long Island was beautiful tonight (Rob #3 can attest), so my neighbor and I went for a cruise. Bad news, still need to fix the wiring, good news, my neighbor is an Albin convert!

[crowra]

Beautiful evenings definitely take precedent over troubleshooting! AND you gained a convert.

[Paddy]

OK Robs, I took a closer look at everything tonight. Knowing that the house batteries are now in parallel and linked to #1 on the switch, I believe I am indeed charging.

Double check this for me. The middle terminal on the charger goes to the positive bus block. The "jumper feed" above it appears to go to the black block to the right on the wall, then to the same positive bus terminal as the middle feed, creating a big jumper. Is the black block on the wall some type of protection and does this appear to be correct?

The echo charge is a head scratcher. The positive feed goes to the positive bus, but the starter feed is connected to the top (jumper terminal) of the pro-mariner charger. This does not makes sense at all, so I disconnected the echo charge for now. I assume the proper way is to hook the feed to the positive bus and starter feed directly to the starting battery, correct me if I am wrong.

Latest pic...the red/yellow is the echo charger starter feed????

[RobS]

Wow, busy setup there. I think the best thing to do is to draw a component/connection diagram. Here's one I did on my Albin of the electronics for example. It really helps....

[crowra]

Rob,

Hopefully I can answer your questions by my take on this setup. I read the manual for the Promariner and that charger can support three separate battery banks. Which sounds ideal for your situation. One to charge the house batts, one for the starting batt and, if you have a separate thruster batt, that too. I don't even see why you need the Echo Charger. And the way it's configured, the Echo Charger is charging what the Promariner is already charging. It's like a double-charge on the upper terminal of the charger. Here's the link to your manual (in case you don't already have it):

http://promariner.com/wp-content/upload ... Manual.pdf

Skip all the 'safety stuff' and go to page 5. You should have a jumper between the lower terminal (the one on the right in the photo with nothing attached to it) and the other terminal above it. If the middle terminal connects in some way that charges the house batts, cool. The upper terminal should connect somehow to charge your starting batt (or vice versa on the terminals) and be completely isolated from your house batts. One other concern is there are no protective covers over your positive cables on the terminals on the charger.

Rob

[Paddy]

The jumper is what is bothering me. For a one battery charge, I need a jumper from bottom terminal 1 to 2 and 3. It looks like the brass insert is taking care of the first jumper, but from 2 to 3 is confusing. I have a "home run" line going right from the middle to the positive bus, that I am considering my #1 feed. I'm not sure where the lines above are going, but they appear to be linked to the small black block on the wall, then to the same terminal on the bus. In theory, there is a load on that terminal, so no jumper is necessary. I am going to retrace the lines tonight. I am reading 12.7V at the block with the charger on, which could make sense as the batteries are fully charged and the charger is just maintaining.

Another annoyance is the way the alternator feed is setup. With the house battery in the #1 position and the boat running, the voltmeter on the dash reads the Optima starting battery taking no charge, sitting just at or below 12V. Switch to BOTH, and now I get a read and the comforting feeling of knowing the alternator is charging the system as I cruise. I was going to use the Echo Charge on the starting battery to show activity on the dash while keeping the alternator charge dedicated and house batteries (#1).

One step closer to figuring out what the PO did, thanks again for the feedback.