Replacement for 4D61

[Vic K]

I've decided to repower my 27. Has anyone had any experience or knowledge with/about the Beta diesel engines? Looking at engine power to boat calculations based on a hull speed ( and continual use speed ) of 6.5 kts it looks like around 40 hp would be enough to move the boat at hull speed with plenty in reserve.
I would welcome all comments.

Vic

[don123]

Beta Marine Diesels use Kubota engines. There are probably more small Kubotas powering all sorts of things than any other brand. They have an excellent reputation

I have a single cylinder 9 HP Kubota diesel powering the 2200 watt genset in my A27 and I also have a 3 cylinder 20 HP Kubota diesel on my garden tractor. Kubota parts are easy to find and usually cheaper than for most other similar engines. I wouldn't hesitate to have a Beta engine in my boat . . . . but I don't think I would be happy with only 40 HP. True, it is plenty of power to get you to hull speed in most conditions, but having an extra 20 or 30 HP in reserve would be welcome when seas aren't calm or when you have a 4 or 5 knot current running against you such as you might encounter in some rivers or when transiting something like the Cape Cod Canal. A friend replaced the factory 18 HP diesel in his sailboat with a new 27 HP after a couple transits through that canal

As you know, only the early 27 FC's came with the 61 HP engine. Later models had the 78 HP Nissan and the 27 Sport Cruisers had the 157 HP Izuzu's

I replaced the 4D61 in my A27 with a 100 HP turbo intercooled 4 cylinder Yanmar 4JH3-HTE - It's very similar in size and weight to the old Peugeot/Lehman 4D61. While I don't expect to use all that horsepower very often, I'm sure there will be times I'm glad I have it. Also, my thinking was that a turbo intercooled engine turning a larger propeller will probably give me better fuel economy at a 6 to 8 knot cruise than my old 4D61 was capable of

Different horses for different courses though - I'm sure your proposed 40 HP will be more than adequate most of the time

Don

[eseyoung]

I agree with Don. I think that a 40 would do just fine MOST of the time but there will be times when you will want to use the semi-part of your semi-displacement hull. The additional cost for the extra power shouldn't be pretty marginal in the scope of everything.

As for Beta i would have no hesitation on the quality of the engines. Seems that Yanmar has a better following and better parts availability, at least for the marine parts. i'd think that other than 'wet' parts anything could be sourced from a tractor dealer. All that said...When i think Beta i think sail boats. Personally, if i were putting the money in i'd go with a motor that had a bigger dealer/parts network.


a friend of mine has a Kabota tractor dealership, he has a few engines taking up space. When i was considering re powering my old A27 i thought about trying to fit her with a dry stack and keel cooler and using one of them.

[sail149]

Vic
Since noise is your biggest issue I would look at the DB ratings for any engines you might consider.
But agree Kobota based engines are really good.
I looked at a 92/3 A27 that had a 180hp BMW diesel in it.
I did not hear it running , it was on land but the factory had added a lot of sound insulation.
Including on both the fwd and aft engine bulkhead, and in the roof of the "pilot' house , which was longer than the 80's era boats. You have a large covered and extended pilot house so that may act as a hugh sounding board and or reflective surface for sound.
You might want to try and find a sound expert to help with the details to be sure you try to solve a problem that is being caused by something else..... And yes the 4d61 is not the quietest of engined but not like a small Detroit diesel either.
The other thing I have wondered about is the prop size which does seem rather small . A larger prop would not have to spin as fast for the same thrust so the engine would run at lower RPM/less noise but would it with out causing smoking or what ever... then it might be an option.....and easy to try if you could borrow an prop???
But I am in a area I know little about , would it restrict top speed? Would it make low speed hard?
( I had a Dutch friend who has a 27/30' polish built boat that had a big Russian diesel in it and he went 5 knots at idle engine speed! with the prop fitted but only 7-8 at WOT...... They used what they could find I guess..... It was a dive boat so did not matter much to him).
So I'm suggesting there my be other things to look at before a $10000.00 engine replacement.
What would a sound engineer say about confining the engine noise it a box cabin like that????
Warren...... Very interested in what you might find out....
Ps I have photos of 92/93 Insulation.

[JT48348]

In a recent conversation with Beta Marine out of NC i was advised based off their experience that the Beta 38 would be the engine of choice. I inquired about increasing the HP to get more speed and was advised that the A27 would not handle cruising long term at 9+ knots due to the hull construction. Moving at those speeds and higher would require reinforcing the aft end of the hull with additional structural springers. The boat would be beat to death otherwise and would fail from the pounding.

The price was approximately $12-13k crates engine, shipping and all options included. Self install.

They have first hand experience doing A27s and the discussion was quite detailed.

[don123]

Very interesting that their maximum rated horsepower is so much less than the factory chose to install in every A27 they manufactured. I wonder what they know that Albin doesn't??

I have read many threads here about A27FC's repowered with larger engines. I recall one person who repowered with an 88 HP Yanmar who reported good results with a 13 knot top speed - Didn't find that thread with a quick search

Here is a description of how the boat handles with a stock Nissan 78 - "Accelerating, at about 7 knots (a hair above hull speed) mine starts to run bow up a little. Increasing speed lifts bow a little more. Gets a little squirmy at 9-10 kts. At 11kts she settles, levels out, goes along very nicely." This person was looking into a 100 HP Yanmar or Beta repower so as not to strain his 78 quite so much at 11 or 12 knots. After lots of reading here, I chose 100 HP for my repower based on the same thinking

I agree too much HP could pound the hull when conditions are not perfect . . . . offshore seas etc, but running in flat water like an inland river, I would think 13 or 14 knots would be perfectly safe - Albin did put 157 HP Izuzu's into basically the same hull . . . .

Don

[JT48348]

Beta didnt say the beta 38 was the max recommeneded engine. They said they recommended the beta 38 as the engine of choice for the A27 in a repower. All I know is Beta NC called me back and told me that they had done betas in A27s and knew the boat well. We discussed this for 45 minutes and he answered every question I had with aplomb. A great experience. His knowledge was first hand and he had direct experience putting a beta diesel in an A27. We discussed every specific component and what could go and what would stay in a self or yard install.

I asked specifically about putting a larger engine for the purpose of being able to cruise at 9-10+ knots. He specifically told me the issue was the hull strength long term and the cost and he didn't really recommend it. The flat hull aft is largely unsupported. He identified the beta 38 as my engine of choice for crusing in a A27. I was told I could go up one more size, but whats the point beyond that (beta 43?) We also discussed long range cruising. The beta 38 would give about 3/4 gallon of diesel/ hour for 7 knots. He said the boat just didnt need more HP. It is what it is.

I know I have read in several places that Albin advertised 10+ knots, but I know of very few people (actually I personally don't know of anyone) who actually cruised at that or more, for any length of time, no matter what their engine in an A27. Maybe someone will chime in say they do this all the time. The below excerpt is from the 1989 Powerboat Magazine review of the A27 FC and Sport, which they test drove at 9 knots, so Idk. The fuel burn at 12 knots was purported to be 8gph and it sounds like they took Albins word for it.

Who has actually put in hours running at 10+ knots in an Albin 27 FC?? And how many times and in what conditions did they do it? What was the engine, and what did it cost in fuel?

I'm not saying you cant go 10+. I just saying I wouldn't think you get on an A27 and cruise 8 hours in 2-3 foot chop at 10+ knots. Seems to me the hull is not designed for that. Also seems to me that Albin 27 boats have very large engines for the hull shape, size and displacement. It might be that a 75hp diesel engine from 1984 is not the same or as necessary as a 75hp diesel engine from 2014. Here's an article about this very topic, and its from 2002!:
http://www.cruisingworld.com/how/diesel ... hers-4-108

Remember this is essentially a displacement hull with a very flat aft section. It only does what it does.
Why did they put such a huge engine in this boat? Idk. Why do they make 1500cc motorcycles when a 650cc will do?Who knows? Maybe Albin was trying to be all things to everyone. They certainly did that in the head and the forward cabin.

Maybe they realized that if you put 75-100hp in the boat you could get it up on plane on a lake or flat river and get 10+ knots (not that anyone would reasonably want to do this or could afford to do this for an extended period of time, or day after day). Sounds like a way to upsell.

It will be exciting to hear about your experiences cruising at 10+ knots with the 100hp Yanmar. I'd like to see and hear and how that goes.

[don123]

No, I don't believe anyone would want to cruise an A27 at 10+ knots 8 hours per day, day after day and that's certainly not my intention, but are there times I will want to do things I cannot do with a 38 HP engine? I'm sure there will be. Few of us drive 38 HP cars, even though most of the time, we're probably using less power than that. There will be conditions where 38 HP will not get you 5 knots and so long as you'd be happy with that, then that's all the engine you actually need . . . . if you don't mind running it wide open for hours and hours in those conditions. I would much rather run my 100 HP engine for hours and hours at 60 HP than relying on my old Lehman running flat out at the same speeds

The fuel burn at 12 knots was purported to be 8gph and it sounds like they took Albins word for it.

"Fuel economics of the diesel are superb. It's possible to chug along at about 5 knots burning 2 to 3 gallons per hour, or 8 to 9 knots burning about 5 gph, or 12 knots burning 8 gph."

I'm not sure whose word they took for it, but those numbers don't sound at all realistic to me - Who has an Albin 27 that burns 2 to 3 gallons per hour at 5 knots?? . . . . with ANY engine - Anybody??

A properly tuned diesel burns .40 pounds of diesel per horsepower produced per hour. Using the figure of 3 GPH @ 5 knots, that works out to 54 horsepower - Even the 2 GPH figure would be 36 HP. The claimed 8 GPH for 12 knots represents 144 HP, but we know a stock 78 HP Nissan can do 11 knots . . . .

The engines used in 27's were more powerful with each change. 61 HP for the early Lehmans, followed by 78 HP for the Nissan, 100 HP for the Westerbeke's and Yanmars and 157 HP for the Izuzu.

True, a 38 HP Beta will drive the boat to hull speed *under most conditions* but there is really no fuel savings to be had by installing a smaller engine. Fuel economy will be nearly identical with a 40 HP or a 100 HP diesel in the same hull at the same speed. There is some efficiency gain to be had when using a turbo-intercooled engine over a naturally aspirated one, so it's possible that the 100 HP engine will actually have slightly better fuel economy than the 40 HP engine if one is turbocharged and the other is not. If the price of the replacement engine is similar, there's little to be gained by going with the smaller one

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo-diesel

"Turbocharging is common in modern car and truck diesel engines to produce higher power outputs, lower emissions levels, and improved efficiency from a similar capacity of engine." Turbo-diesels are also significantly quieter than similar naturally aspirated ones and that can be an important factor on a boat

My engine was rebuilt by Yanmar - New pistons, rings, bearings and the head rebuilt. The heat exchanger, turbocharger, injection pump, both water pumps, exhaust elbow, alternator, engine mounts, all hoses and the panel were all brand new, as is the Hurth ZF-45A 2:1 hydraulic transmission. Price was $10K, owner installed, no tax and free delivery

In the end, it's all about the preference of the owner - Whatever floats your boat, as the old saying goes Would I rather have the rebuilt 100 HP over the brand new 38 HP Beta for the same price? Absolutely!

Don

[JT48348]

Don:

Sounds like a good issue to take up with Powerboat Magazine back in 1989. To be fair, the article is about 6 pages long and they compared both the FC and Sport and I'm not sure its clear what engine was in what boat at the time. I only posted one page, but I have the others and if I can get them into a pdf I will make available. I found the links online.

With all due respect, if we're going to quote someone describing how the A27 performs at 10+ knots, we really ought to post the thread link so we can all read it for ourselves. Otherwise we run the risk of misrepresenting what was said. We should also try, as much as possible, to keep apples seperate from oranges. Otherwise we end up with a giant fruit salad that makes no sense.

Here's the thread link you referenced talking about the performance of the A27 with a Nissan 78.
Gets a Little Squirmy Thread

I think its worth noting the thread posters comments at the end where he talks about how brief and rare he runs the boat at that speed. I now own the boat Eseyoung was talking about, so I will take his word for the hair raising he received at 10 knots.

Your question as I understood it was why did Albin put big engines in the A27 if not for the fact they could go 10+ knots? And why was betamarine suggesting go with less horsepower? I think we've answered some of that, and this is what we know:

-Albin 27s,while they can go 10+ knots, probably shouldnt, long term
-A more realistic crusing speed is 6-9knots maybe, and for that you can use a modern 40hp diesel engine
-Betamarine thinks a good choice is the beta 38 due to hull shape, and build, and cost effectiveness
-Advertising and powerboat reviews can have questionable accuracy and perhaps misinformation, or information easily misinterpretted
-The fact that you dont agree with these ideas is, as you correctly state, your preference.

J

[don123]

Yes, that was the thread - Apologies for not posting the link. Yes, time above the 'magic 11 knots' will be brief and rare for me too I'm sure. But, it will be there if and when I need it

I don't think you'll ever see 8 or 9 knots with a 40 HP engine - It will be interesting to see how that works out for you

It's also worth noting that the reason he started the thread was because he wanted more power than his current 78 HP for "a slow and easy cruise at 7kts, and a fast cruise a little above the magic 11 knots . . . . plus a little headroom" I agree with him that running whatever engine you have flat out for extended periods is probably something to avoid. Just my opinion

Don

[JT48348]

Yes, the OP of this thread wanted to know about 40hp replacement for his A27.

[denchen]

Captvic bear in mind if you go up in power you have to look at shaft size and propeller. My set up is different to yours as I have a Albin 25 with a 1800cc diesel still on the one inch shaft with a 16 x 13 prop. I am happy to cruise around at 6.5 knots at about 1500 revs and getting over two hours out of a gallon of diesel. On board it is fairly quite and civilised so the crew can still make the tea whilst travelling.

[eseyoung]

I am not sure i believe that the boat would tear itself apart at 10knts+. Otherwise we'd not have any 157 Isuzu boats left.

[djblackwood]

In my discussions with the Beta Marine folks at the Toronto Boat Show they recommended the Beta 60, subject of course to whether or not it would fit the space available. They had one on display and it seemed wider but not higher. I didn't have any measurements of the space available with me so I don't know for sure. The Beta 75 and larger would likely not fit. The 60 is a 4-cylinder, 2434 cc, 56 hp max at 2700 rpm. It weighs 287 kg.

[denchen]

Ive had nothing to do with the 27 but for what its worth I would think the 60 is a big lump that has plenty of power but not enough to get the hull on the plane. Albin 25s are easily slowed by being over weighted, I dont know if the 27 is the same. I would be asking myself `do I need a heavy 60hp`. The 38hp looks nice but needs the revs to get its hp, the next up, the 43 is a plodder and might be in the limits of an existing prop shaft. Just my thoughts.....