A27- Head modification

[sail149]

JT. My 2 cents.
An improved head will go down well with my wife. She is always saying ' I hate not being able to wash my hair'.
That is reason enough for the improvement.
Agree cut out the sink and support on the series 1 (pre '88) models , fit a fold away sink for brushing teeth if reqd.
Rotate the head 90deg so the back is on the center of the aft bulkhead , need extra support.
The above should improve the existing head with minimal changes.
If you do push the fwd wall/ bulkhead it looks like it would find nicely inside the existing short wall of the settee seat allowing you to maintain some of the existing pan and strength? And water leaks?
Re holding tank, a pump and hose could push the water to a tank installed in any convent place.

Re hard top, see photos
My 27 had a pro job done on it extending the existing as the same size so it looks like seamless factory product.
But even at this width the edge drip line still gets the seats wet without side curtains up. Nuts!
I have a 12' drip rail I will be installing.
I have customers in the fiberglass business and have wondered if making a mold at the shape of the existing 'pilot house roof' would be worth making a mold if enough folks are interested?
Should we have a seperate thread for hard tops?
Warren
27Ac'84

[JT48348]

I concurr with keeping hardtop info under a hardtop thread. No sense merging unrelated threads. Maybe a moderator can start the "A27 Hardtop Thread," and we can keep the hard top there--and the head info here.

Warren: that looks great. I would definitely be interested in a hardtop if that got off the ground. One of the things I am exploring is a location for a mast step to add a sailrig to the Albin 27 FC. ( Wait for it....watch everyone go ballistic!) I want to install a hinged mast step on the old pilothouse roof with a small mast and boom. The mast step would be reinforced and distribute the step load. There would be no need for a compression post. There would be a small steadying mainsail, and a low aspect mast (15-18') to run a headsail on a furler. Chainplates are still on the drawing board. The boom will be a nice lift for a dingy.

If no mold for a the hardtop extension, I would make my own and reinforce the current pilothouse. I plan to make it form cored. I really like your support beams and am curious where you got those. I think 1" stainless for supports is too small and want something more robust. Do you have any camber to your after hardtop? Its hard to tell from the pics. Also would you slightly round the corners of the aft hardtop if you did it again?

[don123]

One of the things I am exploring is a location for a mast step to add a sailrig to the Albin 27 FC. ( Wait for it....watch everyone go ballistic!) I want to install a hinged mast step on the old pilothouse roof with a small mast and boom. The mast step would be reinforced and distribute the step load. There would be no need for a compression post. There would be a small steadying mainsail, and a low aspect mast (15-18') to run a headsail on a furler. Chainplates are still on the drawing board. The boom will be a nice lift for a dingy.

The existing hardtop could best be described as an eggshell - It's never going to support any sort of mast loads without a compression post. You could easily install one though, either resting on the bulkhead just forward of the engine bay, or the one just aft of it - I put a 1" stainless post aft of the engine bay to support my new hardtop

Motorsailers with a keel and an underbody specifically designed to be favorable for sailing don't actually perform that well, at least not in my book. I've had friends who owned a couple briefly and the best they could do was reduce the GPH fuel use . . . . assuming you're not in a hurry. You need very strong winds to go anywhere without running the engine - The sort of winds which cause many of us to think about not going out that day

A close friend bought a Fischer 34 and I went with him on the delivery across the Gulf from Ft Lauderdale to Biloxi, hopping along the Florida west coast so we never got too far away from fuel docks to supply his thirsty 100 HP Westerbeke - The boat originally came with a Volvo, but after two blown headgaskets while cruising the Bahamas requiring very expensive tows, the original owner replaced it with a new Westerbeke and my friend bought it shortly after. He didn't keep it very long either

But, eager to see your A-27 'motorsailer' mods and hear what you think about it's performance. Without adventurers trying new things, we'd still all be sailing downwind in wooden boats!

Don

[eseyoung]

So would your sail be a motorsailer or just a steadying sail?

[sail149]

Hi JT
I started a new hardtop thread
A27 Hard Top Modification
I invite folks to post comments there
To answer you questions here
My boat can as you see it with the rather nice aluminum supports at the stern
The camber/curve is the same as the original.
The front is fiberglassed as one piece to the short hard top no seam.
The back is square back like the original and appears to have the original wood cover installed on it.
Warren

[sail149]

JT
Re mast... There is an A27 that somebody installed a mast like you are interested in.
It was foresale I think I'll see if I can find a photo I try to save photos as the variety of A27s is surprising.
I think it might have run a for sail not a mainsail but see what I can find
Any body else see it?
Warren

[sail149]

Don
Not sure how to do the quote thing on this board but I think the stock hard top is stronger than you think.
Mine is an inner and outer skin of fiberglass with a void between . Mine has a heave radar mounted with a large SS back plate and is plenty strong, I can walk around on it with out flex.
A short mast might not be the best thing to mount up there but I suspect the compression loads will be low as it's only for a steadying sail and not to provide propulsion.
I also have my doubts how effective it would be too. I see a steadying sail on old fishing boats as a way of helping it stay head to wind and waves rather than stop any sort of rolling while working the nets etc.
It would be interesting to get a comment from the owner who installed a mast. His was just behind the hardtop.
Warren

[JT48348]

Thanks for the comments. When I get to the mast project, I will start a thread for that. But to briefly answer the questions about my mast idea... Yes the idea is for a steadying sail, and a head sail. The idea is not to create a motorsailer. The idea is to create an auxiliary sailer. There is a is difference. And auxiliary sailer is a full keel motor yacht with a an auxiliary sail. You motor first, and sail second. In contrast, a motorsailer you actually sail first and motor second. An auxiliary sailer can be referred to as a troller yacht. Its not designed to sail into the wind, nor even approach a close angle to the wind. The idea is to sail with the wind or at most 90 degrees off. The sail is an auxiliary.

This concept is well explained in George Beuhlers book "The Troller Yacht", chap 4. He explains it very well, and addresses all the arguments as to why it can't or shouldn't be done, the arguments against performance, etc. There are numerous collateral advantages to this rig option. I wasn't sold initially, but the more I read about it and study various boats with it, I warmed to it. His argument finally convinced me. The concept is proven out with several vessels, and I think would work well with the Albin 27 for my purposes.

The hard top will support a short mast with some modification. It does not require a compression post but will likely need a reinforced, distributed, mast step. I would definitely consider putting it behind the pilothouse, but I haven't really eyeballed where. I think my engine hatches are in the way where I would put it. Don, you idea of fwd closer to the bulkhead is an interesting one.

[don123]

The hard top will support a short mast with some modification. It does not require a compression post but will likely need a reinforced, distributed, mast step. I would definitely consider putting it behind the pilothouse, but I haven't really eyeballed where. I think my engine hatches are in the way where I would put it. Don, you idea of fwd closer to the bulkhead is an interesting one.

Mast loads are hard to calculate, but the mast compression is always the biggest number and it can be 3X or 4X as much as the tension on any single piece of the standing rigging due to the angles involved, especially when you have enough wind pressure applied to heel the boat On a sailboat which is not carefully designed, mast compression loads can alter the shape of the hull like a banana - The forestay and backstay seem to keep loosening on their own as the pressure under the mast distorts the shape of the entire hull by pressing down on the keel

I did find some numbers for a 30' sailboat and they estimated 5,000 pounds on the shrouds and 16,000 pounds of compression at the base of the mast. I know of older sailboats with deck stepped masts which originally used an oak 4 x 4 for a compression post which needed to be replaced as the boat aged - A stainless steel post was usually recommended, because compression loads would not cause it to shorten when compressed and deform the cabin top like the oak post did

Granted, your steadying sail will never generate anything comparable to those numbers, but if we're only talking about say 20% of those numbers, that could still represent 3,000 pounds pressing down on the center of the cockpit roof . . . . and yet you matter-of-factly state "It does not require a compression post"

The A-25 with sailing rig steps the mast on the cabin top which is much stronger than our hardtop and they all use a compression post

I'm wondering what calculations you have made and how you arrived at such a bold statement

Don

[jhgullett]

JT,
If you are removing it, would you like to find your dinette table a new home ?
John

[JT48348]

John, PM sent. I anticipate having some parts and will let everyone know.

[sail149]

JT
Have you considered a mast mounted well aft and use a jib / genoa type sail going forward.
A lot easier to mount and find support for the mast and out of the way of a hardtop?
Maybe have a tabernacle on the back of the hardtop and the mast could fold down forwards on the hard top when not in use? That way you could have maybe a 25' mast that would stay within the length of the hull!
That would be a tall mast!
Warren

[JT48348]

New A27-Mast Thread started here
Lets discuss this further there.

[JT48348]

So I have been slowing removing all the wood bits, headliner, tanks and other things in preparation for my total refit. I finally worked my way forward and reached the head. Last time, I got the cracked fresh water tank out, this time I tackled the toilet and the waste tank.

How do you know the previous owner loves you?--when you realize the holding tank is full.
Now to be fair, Eseyoung did warn me that the marina might have failed to empty the tank....Buddy, they owe you a refund.
I checked the tank with a light and it appeared to be empty, but that was just the Gods screwing with me, because as soon as I started cutting into hoses, I was up s***t creek without a paddle. And by the time I drug that sucker out of the engine room, I had smelled many better days.

With the toilet and tanks gone, I started eyeing the bulkheads and sink, and that damn bench. I heard Don in my ears, saying "don't do it!" and scores of others warning of resale value and structural limitations. It was time to commit. I went to find the sawsall.....

[JT48348]

For this job you will need a sawsall, and a 4" grinder, and a one of those oscilating plunge cut multi-tools. Plus a respirator and some MGC, probably at least a gallon and maybe more if you are small guy or wear tight pants. Get the ultra premium grade, and don't hold back, you will need the full gallon. This is a messy job. The Albin 27FC is constructed fairly well, and the glass (the pan liner) is laid up very nice. I burned through 3 sawsall blades, wore down a grinder disc, and burned through 3 oscilating multi-tool half-round cutters. This is what I learned:

- the bulkhead is not tabbed in. Whaaa? That's right its not tabbed into the ceiling or floor. Oh snappp

-all the trim comes off with little screws

-the bulkhead is screwed into the side of the sink, and then glued in place with maybe 3m4200 or something. It's almost a full 4x8' sheet, and passed between the bench and sink. This turned out to be the most difficult as you can't get into the cranny to cut the stuff. I ended up cutting the bulkhead. But that's ok, because my new bulkhead is marine lumber, because I refuse to varnish things for the rest of life. The sink and bench are each glassed to the hull and the base looks like 1/2" ply glassed in.

-the bulkhead is two pieces of plywood joined with dowels to create a piece that's more than 49" wide, a small section closest to the hull will come out once you start cutting, but you still have a 49"x70" tall piece to get out and its glued in place. Everything fits out the companionway hatch.

- You have to go at it piece meal, from the forward area by the bench, and then aft from the head area, to reach everything and make sure you don't cut the hull. If need be go ahead and "cut access holes" so you can see how much space you have to the hull and whats connected to what. Better to make small cuts and eat the elephant one bite at time.

-The forward corner of the sink and former bulkhead was hardest to remove.

-does not appear to be any "structural" integrity issues-- hull flex-- cutting into the pan liner. The liner is not tabbed to the hull below the deck, and only tabbed in the sink and bench area. The bilge extends under the floor well fwd of the bench area. Its not supported now. But it will be . In fact the new bulkhead, in its new position will provide an excellent support to the mast step for my Albin 27 auxiliary sailer project. Easy access straight to the keel.

- the grinder works best, but you need all three tools for different cuts at different times, so they can play off each other.

-this is a tough job, and you need a respirator, and a gallon of MGC no matter what

I still have to clean everything closer to hull, mock up the new lines, and then start figuring how to reinforce a few key areas of the pan liner. I think most reinforcement will be to keep the liner from flexing underfoot, and I want to investigate a sump for the shower. I plan to lower the "step" where the toilet was to create more standing area, and to go half way into the hanging locker to enlarge the overall head footprint. All in all ' very pleased with the results, and there are no deal breakers yet. Full steam ahead!