Reverse Cycle AC and the Honda EU 2000 generator

[TonyAmalfitano]

HONDA CALLED ME! But didn't answer the question, I don't think. Honda did not address the grounding issue because it involves inside our boats. They did say, the eu2000i is an inverter type, our boats are also inverters, this causes the eu2000i to display a reversed polarity light when in fact the polarity is not reversed. Honda is aware of this condition. This will not harm the eu2000i, or our boat.

[Capt Paul]

Tony,

Thanks for sharing the info. I made it down to the boat and made some measurments. My in inverters neutral is grounded to the boat ground so all is well with the set up using the generator.

Paul

[Richard]

I hate to beat a dead horse but............I finally got around to hooking up my Honda EU 2000 to my TE 28 with troubling results The red reverse polarity light on the TE 28 AC panel illuminates as do all the green leds on the left sid of the AC panel, without the breakers turned on (not on the right side of the panel, however) The boats AC volt meter reads about 70 volts and drops about 10v when I turn on my 50w cabin drier. Yikes!!! (Everything is perfectly normal on shore power)

When I check the plug at the boat-end of the generator-to-boat power cord, I get 125V across the "hot" leads. When I check each hot lead to the ground pin on the cable, I get 62.5 v (same thing directly at the generator receptacle).

Anybody else get the same result? Should the ground on the gererator be connected to the boat's ground and if so where? I don't want to damage things like my battery charger, etc. so I am hesitant to proceed without understanding what is going on.

Attaching a jumper between the ground spade and the spade which is normally the neutral (silver screw) in the plug that goes into the generator would tie the "neutral" spade to the generator ground and the boats ground so it would seem to make it just like shore power (which grounds the neutral in the main panel box). I am not sure why Honda does not do this at the generator???

[Capt Paul]

Richard,

To me it sounds like the generator is having problems, It doesn't sound like it is regulating the voltage correctly. Have you tried just connecting something to it other then the boat. Try something that will load it down quite a bit and the voltage should stay at 120 volts or so. If it dosen't then that is your problem. Check to see that you have the settings on the generator correct.


Paul

[jcollins]

Richard,
I have the same generator. (actually 2)
I have tried both on the boat separately (2000 watts) and with the parallel connector (4000 watts) with no reverse polarity lights or problems. I have not grounded the generator as discussed in other posts. If I recall yours is new? Perhaps you should contact Honda.
I should also add this was just testing (both) and I have only used one generator for any extended period of time.

[Denis]

I have used that Honda gen. for three years on my boat and I have no issues with it at all. It runs with plenty of power and is quiet of course. I don't have AC but it heats my hot water and keeps the batterys charged while at anchor or at a mooring. It sounds like you could have an internal problem with your generator or possibly your power cord?

[Richard]

My Honda EU 2000 generator problem is solved (Honda was no help whatsoever, but a little research cleared it up).

It turns out that the generator (the output of which is actually an inverter) was functioning as exactly as designed but this design causes the boat instrumentation to do funny things as the Honda is really behaving differently than shore power. The generator chassis ground (also same as it's duplex outlet ground) is not connected to the "neutral" (white wire) and the Honda actually has a 60v potential between each of the "power" legs (the white and the black legs) and the ground (green) leg. Across the white and black, however, it is 120V just like shore power.

Shore power on the other hand has the green ground and white neutral connected (bonded) and there is zero potential (0 volts) between the white neutral and the green ground and 120v between the black and either the white or the ground.

The reverse polarity indicator on my boat is set up to look for a zero potential between the green ground and white neutral. If you actually had the black and white wires reversed in the power cord or on the dock, you would have a 120v potential from neutral to ground and that would turn on the red reverse polarity light. With the Honda plugged in it sees the Honda's 60v potential to ground and turns on the red light.

What is somewhat strange is that it caused my boat's volt meter to read around 60 v. If the volt meter was connected to the white and black in the panel as I would have expected, it should have been reading 120v so I can only assume that the volt meter must read across the black and ground thus indicating the Honda's 60v potential to ground. (With shore power this potential is normally 120V since the white and ground are tied together0.

I do not think it would have caused a problem to leave it all alone and run as-is with the funky panel readings but the engineer in me kept telling me to fix it so the red light would go out and the panel volt meter would read correctly. I was also concerned that not having the neutral and ground bonded might impact my other equipment (just not sure).

The fix was very simple: in the power cord male plug that goes into the generator, I removed the green wire from the ground pin and connected it to the neutral pin along with the white wire. This in effect bonds the neutral and ground just like it is in the shore power's main panel box (also like it is in your house's main panel box). I did not use a jumper as that would have tied the generator ground to the neutral and Honda apparently does not want that or they would have done it in the generator itself.

After making this simple change everything now indicates correctly. The only thing I do not have is a connection between the generator ground and the boat ground which I do not think is an issue. The Honda and the Albin each have their own protection so I can't see why tying the grounds together is necessary. I assume that older boats (mine is an 07) must have different panel arrangements and sensors if they do not get the funky readings that I experienced.

Hope this makes sense and I did not totally confuse everybody. I am sure that Passagemaker would not approve but what the heck, they hate portable generators.

[Capt Paul]

Richard,

Sounds like there may be voltage (of at least 60 Volts) present between your boat ground and the generator ground with what you just did. Unless I do not understand the setup correctly. Be careful! You may want try and measure it or have a electrician measure it.

Paul

[Richard]

Thanks Paul, I did not consider that. I believe you are correct and will verify with my multimeter. I am not sure how much of a safety problem that is as the Honda case is plastic and very little metal is exposed. It would be difficult to contact metal on the generator and metal on the boat at the same time but I definitely don't like the idea of the 60v potential between grounds.

My only other options are to go back to where I was originally (funky panel readings but grounds connected through the unmodified power cord) or to tie the two grounds together and to the neutral. If I tie the grounds together that ties the Honda neutral to ground which may cause a problem in the generator itself. I will try to contact Honda but really don't expect them to be very helpful.

Perhaps my best bet is to stick with the standard power cord and just live with the reverse polarity light on and the AC voltmeter in the panel reading 60 v (and several of the green AC panel leds illuminated even when the breakers are off) and hope that nothing else on the boat is negatively affected by this arrangement. I am particularly concerned about the battery charger but it sounds like others have not had any problems with this setup.

It's nice to have a forum like this where ideas can be debated. Thanks again for your input.

[DougSea]

Richard,

I have a generator that I use at home for emergency power (not a Honda) and I've got an "adapter" plug which is plugged into one of the free sockets and connects the Neutral and Ground together at the generator. This is in part due to it's having a 3-wire 220 output and a metal case so bonding the ground and neutral are important. Since Neutral and Ground should be at the same potential in most AC circuits you might consider researching the same for your setup.

[jruesr]

I used a Honda 2000 on-board my sailboat for years. It would run my Air conditioner, water heater and my 100 amp battery charger (one at a time). Electrically it is great. The two safety issues that I rate high are. One, onboard your boat the neutral and ground should never be connected. This should be done at the source (before the power reaches your input plug). This may seem strange because they are connected in your dock power outlet box. The reason why this is so important is that if you connect them on the boat, then if you plug into a dock that's wired backwards (neutral and hot), then your grounded items on the boat become hot and you could electrocute yourself or someone else.

The second thing to realize is that we watch other diesel boats running generators and think the honda is similar. Realize that a proper diesel generator produces almost no carbon monoxide. A gas generator is completely different. It definitely makes this colorless, odorless gas in large quantities. I never ran the honda at night or while sleeping and always kept vigil to insure that nothing goes wrong.

I now cary mine on the Albin and love it. It is quiet and does not bother anyone (during the daytime). Be considerate.

John
Passages III
Albin 32

[jruesr]

I had inverter problems with my Honda on the sailboat. My inverter/charger (Heart EMT) would not even turn on unless the neutral and ground were connected coming into the boats power plug. This was good it protected me from a reversed dockside shore connection.

In order to make everything work together I made a special cord that connected the neutral and ground (within the cord) with a 110 duplex plug on the generator end and a 30 amp boat plug on the other end. It worked great for years and I could leave the generator and the boat unaltered as designed. I only use the cord on the boat and marked it as such.

Everyone needs to solve there own boat circuit problems and I am not recommending anything to anyone else.

John

[RobS]

Back to the original question: I installed a 9K BTU rev cycle unit last year. I ran the unit on the Honda gen in question. The gen needed to be switched out of the economy mode to run it.