Reverse Cycle AC and the Honda EU 2000 generator

[Richard]

Does anybody have any experience running a reverse cycle AC unit with the Honda EU 2000 Genrator and if so what size/brand is the AC unit you have? I have seen different dealers for the generator make different claims on their websites (some going as high as 16,000 BTU).

Also any photos that show how you anchor the EU 2000 to your boat would be appreciated.

I just purchased the generator and am now trying to decide on which A/C unit to install.

If any body else is interested in getting one of these generators Wise Equipment (www.wisesales.com) has them at the lowest price I could find ($875 including shipping and no tax unless you live in IL)

[jcollins]

Hey Richard,
How is everything on the Wye River? I am really going to try and make that trip before the end of the season. Just for the cruise.
I bought a Honda for the same price. Great generator. If I recall it's 1600 continuous. Should work fine for your AC.
I have mine on the bow during the day since we spend most of our time in the cockpit. Don't really mount it. Just tie down with a couple of lines. Of course if you spend most of your time in the cabin, putting it on the swim platform will probably work better. I haven't run the AC at night yet. The weather has been too nice.

When underway, I keep it behind the captains helm. I do have to get a decent cover for it, but haven't found one yet. (haven't searched very hard)

John

[TonyAmalfitano]

I checked out the www.wisesales.com site Richard talked of. They sell a cover for the honda.

[SpaceCoaster]

Not to rain on anyone's boat parade, but....

I've been considering doing something similar with a 2kw gas genny that I had purchased to get me through power outages during the FL hurricane season. I did a trial run at my dock and it provided plenty of power for me to operate my 5200 BTU Mermaid Marine Air.

However, I'm rethinking this now based on a letter to the editor I read in Passagemaker Magazine. I've scanned the text and am posting it here for all to consider. I think it's great advice. - Jorge

The following was published in Passagemaker Magazine, Letters to the Editor, December 2006 Issue.

Subj: AC Electrical Ground.

We have a Honda portable generator, EU2000i, for use on our 28-foot, diesel-powered Albin when anchoring overnight. We operate the generator on the open deck.

The AC output meets our power requirements; however, the system ground is not connected to the AC neutral within the generator. This results in the AC neutral having voltage with respect to the AC ground. Our boat is normally kept on a boat lift, and we do not have an isolation transformer.

We would appreciate your comments and suggestions. Thanks!

H&L Howe, Palmetto, FL

First, let me say that the use of portable, air-cooled, gasoline-powered generators aboard cruising vessels is frowned upon within the marine industry (and by this technical editor). Putting the electrical issues aside for the moment, these generators produce considerable amounts of carbon monoxide (CO), a colorless, odorless poisonous gas that has been responsible for killing a number boaters in recent years. (On average more than 400 people die each year in the United States from CO poisoning.

Because the installation on your boat is “temporary,” it is likely to be bypassing many of the standard safety protocols found on permanent gasoline generator installations. If, for instance, you were to run the genset in the cockpit and the wind was from astern (because the tide was keeping the stern into the wind), then CO fumes could be transported into the boat. Even if you don’t operate a generator in this manner I strongly suggest that you and every boat owner install a CO monitor in your cabin. Even CO from another boat can cause injury or death. Then there are the issues of transporting and storing gasoline on a small vessel that’s not designed for this fuel. As far as the electrical issues are concerned, this generator operation must be treated like any other. You didn’t indicate how your generator’s electrical output is connected to the boat’s electrical system. If it’s through the shorepower cable, then you don’t need to use a shore/generator selector system. However the generator’s ground still must be connected to its neutral, and the generator’s metal chassis must also be grounded. In short, because this type of installation violates a number of recognized safety protocols, I strongly recommend that you consider either an inverter or a permanent diesel generator installation.

Steve C. D’Antonio
PMM Technical Editor

[jcollins]

I checked out the www.wisesales.com site Richard talked of. They sell a cover for the honda.

Tony,
Thanks. Ordering today.

John

[jcollins]

<SNIP> However the generator’s ground still must be connected to its neutral, and the generator’s metal chassis must also be grounded. In short, because this type of installation violates a number of recognized safety protocols, I strongly recommend that you consider either an inverter or a permanent diesel generator installation.

Steve C. D’Antonio
PMM Technical Editor

I am putting the CO issues aside since they have been covered under other posts on this board. AND...I have to assume (that's dangerous) that we all know about those dangers and have taken steps to avoid them.
There is a connector for a ground wire. Should I be grounding this unit everytime it's run? And, if the answer is a resounding yes, any suggestions? I have seen other boaters with portable gennys and I really don't remember seeing a ground wire.

[Mariner]

CO fumes are a risk with any generator. The wiring issues can be worked out relatively easily.

The REAL reason that portable gasoline generators are frowned upon is due to the fact that they are extremely loud and that noise carries very far over water. Fire one of those things up in an anchorage that I'm in, and you might find your anchor line cut in the middle of the night.

[jcollins]

Naw...maybe a nasty note or radio message but your too nice a guy to cut lines. <smile>

[Mariner]

You're right. I'd probably just put my VHF on the PA setting and turn the squelch all the way down, and the volume all the way up. See how you like that!

[TonyAmalfitano]

Geezs, you guys sure do like to get off the subject, glad I'm around to keep yous on track.
So, what about grounding the generator? Yes, No, Maybe so?

[Capt Paul]

Tony,

Iv'e been thinking about this some. If you are on the hook some where your generators ground and your boat ground will be tied together assuming you are using your shore power cable. Now neutral and the generator ground will still be floating from each other on the gen set side ( per the post above, I haven't checked on my gen set yet bit I will). I haven't checked the wiring on my boat eitherso I am assuming that neutral and ground are separated coming out of the inverter if this is the case then there could be a voltage exsisting between neutral and ground. The only way to be sure is to measure it while the gen set is attached and the boat is not hooked up to anything else. I would also check to make sure that it is OK to connect nuetral and ground together on the gen set without voiding the warranty, if indeed they are separted.

Paul

[TonyAmalfitano]

So, what you're saying is..... The ground and neutral would be connected together within the generator. Then the steel case has to be grounded as well. Is this tied into the same connection, ie: ground+neurtal+case? Or do I clamp a welding cable to the case and drop it into the sea? (Old sailboat lighting trick.)

[Capt Paul]

Tony,

No, that is not what I am saying. The ground and neutral may not be connected in the generator. The steel case and the ground should be though.

What I was trying to say is, and I still need to check this, that ground and neutral coming out of the inverter on my boat may be tied together. If this is the case, the gen set's ground and neutral would be tied together when hooked up to the boat.

The reason ground is so important "on land or when attached to land" is that everything is referenced to it. On a boat using a gen set your reference needs to be the generator and it is what everything needs to be reference to. Earth ground has nothing to do with it. This pretty much will happen as long as it's ground is attached to your boat's ground (shore power cable will do this). The question comes as to how neutral is referenced to it. At home we have polarized plugs so that the Hot line and the neutral line are not confused. Neutral is always referenced to ground at some point in an electrical distribution system on land ( at least it should be). This keeps any voltage that could be developed on it to a safe level. I am not going to be able to make it to my boat to make these measurements until the weekend. But I will do it and let you know what I find out.

The real safety issue is if neutral is floating from your boat ground a shock potential exists. Another possible issue is what the inverter is expecting to see on it's input for AC power. I need to read up on this just to make sure all is OK. I used the gen set a couple of times and have not had any mishaps but better to be safe.....

Paul

[TonyAmalfitano]

Capt. Paul,
Let me see if I got this right. Shore power to boat is grounded to shore, all is good. Generator power attached via the shore power inlet, feeds an inverter, the inverter ground and neutral needs to be "attached" to the grounding block which is attached to the bottom of the hull. If this is how things are set up in my boat now then I'd be good?
My boat neighbor is an electrical engineer, he kind of said the same thing as you. I took his reply and faxed it to Honda. If Honda replies I'll post it.

[Capt Paul]

Tom,

That is exactly what I'm hoping to find on my boat when I check it. All should be good with that setup. I'm very interested to find out what Honda replies with.

Thanks,
Paul