A25 Anchor - How Much is Too Much?

[stxray]

Another anchor was on my "need" list. I have a bow anchor and a lunch hook but they are both danforth-types. Given my plans to do the ICW, I thought I should also have another of a different type.

I did some research and settled on a Delta type and, according to what I read, 22 lbs. would be the recommended size. I also read that bigger is better and its a good idea to go one size larger. So, the hunt was on.

I found a 34 lbs. Delta (the next size up from the recommended 22 lb.) on eBay for a good price made an offer.

Well, it arrived today and now that its sitting in my living room, it seems a lot bigger and heavier than what I expected. I think this thing could work on any bottom type as I think it could hold the boat without even digging in. I was planning on installing it on a bow roller with a windlass and rope rode but now I'm concerned it might be too big and might alter the handling of the boat especially in rough seas.

What do you think? Is anyone carrying an anchor this heavy on an A25? Is it too heavy for mounting on the bow?

Comments welcomed and appreciated.

[Beta Don]

Anchoring is all about what makes you sleep easy at night when the winds kick up. You need a good 'connection' with the bottom and improving that can be done with either a better engineered anchor, or a larger conventional or 'old style' anchor. Going with a larger anchor means having to deal with it's extra weight every single time you use it. Perhaps not a big problem if you're 25 years old and have a strong back, but for most of us, a better connection via a modern 'next generation' anchor is the better way to go

Personally, I wouldn't waste any of my money on an old style anchor, and a Delta plow would be considered by most everyone to be yesterday's technology. I would be looking at a Rocna, Mantus or Manson anchor for my small boat, especially for a small boat without a windlass. IMO, a 25 pound modern anchor will out hold the 33 pound Delta, perhaps by a factor of as much as 2 to 1

Cruising the ICW you need something that will hold in a rocky bottom, a grassy bottom, a sandy bottom and a muddy bottom and plow type anchors can have problems with just about anything other than sand

You will probably pay a bit more for a modern 25 pound anchor than you will for the used 33 pound plow you're considering, but in the long run I think it will be the best investment you ever made

Incidentally, the designer of the Rocna used a Delta for several years and that's what led him to design a better anchor

http://kb.rocna.com/kb/Delta_anchor

Don

[stxray]

Don,
Thanks for the comments. I checked out the Rocna link and I like what it says. Looks like I'll be shopping for a 22 lb. Rocna.

In the meantime, however, given that I already own the 34 lb. Delta and it's way to heavy to use as a paperweight, do you see any problem with carrying that much weight on the bow? I don't want green water breaking over the bow should I be caught in heavy sea because I'm carry too much weight that far forward.

[Beta Don]

I used a 25 pound Mantus, which I got for a better price than either the Rocna or the Manson. I think any of the 3 are similar enough that I would buy whatever I found for a good price

Even on our A27, there just wasn't sufficient room for two anchors on the bow. I carried a second, 35 pound anchor stowed in the back under the berths, securely tied to the rudder post along with 300' of rode. If it looked like we would have to anchor in near hurricane conditions, we would deploy them both, and probably a long line to someplace on shore as well

I like to keep as much weight off the bow as possible and whatever ground tackle you stow there needs to be very secure - It's almost a given that one day you will be burying the bow in a large wave or two. Even if you have room to securely mount two anchors, I would think twice about it, unless you intend to frequently use both at the same time - You probably cannot store rodes for two anchors there either, can you? On our 2,500 mile cruise, we never had to break out the big one and we anchored out a LOT. Our ratio was roughly 2 nights per week in marinas and 4 or 5 nights on the hook

Don

[Ben423]

I agree with Don. The new anchor technology is far superior to the Danforth/CQR/Delta type. I've anchored thousands of times with all types of anchors and found the Manson/Rocna type to work best in a wide variety of conditions. A 10kg Rocna will be plenty big enough for your needs, IMHO.

[NickScheuer]

I've been using Bruce and it's clone, Claw, for 35 years, ever since Edey & Duff equipped my boats (2) with them as standard equipment. They've never let me down in a variety of situations. Just because they've been supersceeded by slightly "better technology" why would they fail me now?

[Beta Don]

I think a lot depends on where you anchor. Near shore in a muddy bottom like we have here along the Gulf coast can present some unique problems

I used a genuine Bruce for about 20 years too - The Chinese 'claw' version sitting next to the genuine article looks clearly inferior . . . . the two side 'arms' on the ones I looked at didn't have the same twist to them and the very rough finish can't be easy to pull deep into the bottom. I was never tempted buy one of them just to save a few bucks

I do agree that once you have a Bruce, or a Danforth or even a plow to a lesser extent (CQR or Delta) set in a good holding bottom, they all hold quite well. Sometimes getting them set means dragging them several yards and then you're not anchored where you want to be, so you pull it back up and repeat the process until you get it set where you want to be

I wouldn't characterize the new crop of anchors as 'slightly better technology' - I think they're the biggest single improvement in anchoring since the Danforth was invented. The big, really big, advantage to the new anchors is they set almost instantly in virtually ANY bottom, regardless of weeds, coral, hard sand or whatever is down there, which means when the tide changes and the current shifts 180 degrees or a storm kicks up and you swing to a new heading breaking your anchor out, the new ones will always reset quickly, unlike the Bruce I used for so long - It would eventually reset on it's own . . . . if there was plenty of room before I hit the beach. I had more than one uncomfortable night with my Bruce

There are numerous anchor tests where they pull two anchors at once in the same bottom with the same scope and chain and the new anchors are many times better at setting, and resetting, regardless of the bottom

As I mentioned earlier, Anchoring is all about what makes you sleep easy at night when the winds kick up - If your Bruce doesn't keep you up at night in a storm, you should probably keep it. For me, since the anchor is the only thing between me and disaster, I want the best thing there is down there. I haven't driven a mile on a bias ply tire in 35 years either and for the same reason

Don

[NickScheuer]

To bypass the Bruce (& Claw) by suggesting that the new crop of "high tech" anchors are the best thing to happen to anchors since the Danforth is just plain wrong.

The Danforth was originally designed as a low-cost implement for dragging LST's and other Landing Craft off beaches and out to water deep enough to turn around in under power. There are lots of ways for a Danforth to fail on any bottom other than sand. Nonetheless, the Danforth remains popular because it is comparatively cheap.

The Bruce was originally designed as a tool for holding North Sea Oil Rigs upright.

[Beta Don]

Very aware of both those facts - If you think back to the anchors in use before WWII and compare their holding power per pound to the Danforth, you'll understand where I'm coming from

Real Danforths (not the knock-offs) are very sturdy and hold very well until you swing and break them out - Then, maybe they reset themselves and maybe they don't

Don

[Bearkeley]

We just got the Fortress Fx11 (7 lbs) designed for a 28-30ft boat for our 27. With a 5:1 scope and 12 ft of chain, we have held despite 35knt winds on the muddy Chesapeake Bay. Despite that, however, as a new cruiser, I still can't sleep through the night!

We have only dragged when scope was too short and wind shifted 180, but I just find myself needing to check if we dragged about every hour until about 3 am, then every 2 hours until the sun rises.

Given the hull shape of our boats, it was also very obvious that we were swinging a lot more than the sailboats. I wonder if a heavy anchor, like the one you just got could also be helpful in slowing your swings....not setting it as a second, but maybe just dragging straight down as your second?

[NickScheuer]

Adding to the idea of not needing to improve on one's outstanding experience, consider all the folks who still use a CQR as their primary anchor. CQR's predate WW2, yet they are no less effective than they ever were, before long lists of recent "anchor tests" revealed slightly "better", much newer anchor designs.

[Beta Don]

But . . . . I can remember 15 or 20 years ago when a CQR was the most expensive used anchor you could buy, *if* you could find anyone willing to sell you one. These days, used CQR's are a dime a dozen. I know when I sold the 25 and 35 pounder I had (once my most prized possessions) I didn't get half what I paid for them when I bought them used. Used to be, you could count on getting your money back with a CQR. Now, most sailors are buying something else and don't even keep the CQR as a second or even third anchor. Deltas are similar . . . . lots of good buys on used ones these days too

As mentioned in the link I posted above, the Delta put a huge dent in CQR popularity - "The Delta, per its design criteria, did deliver a significant improvement over its ancestral plow type, and jumped ahead of the Bruce to become the best anchor at the time of its release" . . . . or so Peter Smith, the designer of the Rocna claims. He sailed with one for several years . . . . which prompted him to design something better

I'm not suggesting everyone (or anyone) run right out and buy new anchors and put their old ones up for sale. If you're confident in it's ability to keep your boat safe in whatever waters you usually cruise, by all means spend your hard earned boat $$$ elsewhere - But . . . . if you're needing to buy an anchor, better to spend your money on a more modern solution and, if you're about to embark on a long cruise (doing the Loop?) to unfamiliar waters with different bottoms than what you usually see, it would probably be prudent to invest in something known to work most everywhere

I used a Fortress as the back-up to my Bruce for several years as it's a very good mud anchor and we have LOTS of mud down here. It buries deep and holds much better than my Bruce when set with long scope and backed down on hard. You could then shorten scope and sleep pretty well. It can be hard to break out the next morning, which I guess is a good thing - I bent the crossbar on mine twice trying to get it back aboard and Fortress was always great about sending you new parts under their lifetime warranty. It's primary drawback (IMO) was that it's light weight made it very hard to set and if there was any plant growth at all, it was nearly impossible to get it to bite. I remember backing up a dozen boat lengths dragging it all over the harbor several times and trying again and again and eventually giving up and using something else

There is no 'perfect' dink for every boat and there is no perfect anchor either - Whatever allows you good sleep at night is the best one for you, even if that means dealing with a 50 pound monster on your 25 foot boat. But, if you have more than one anchor, eventually you'll convince yourself it's OK to use the smaller one tonight . . . . weather's not supposed to be bad and again, eventually when you really need your 'best' anchor, it will still be on deck and you'll stay awake worrying about the smaller, easier to handle one. Better (IMO) for your 'best' anchor to be your everyday one and still be small enough to handle easily

Lets not get into the rope vs chain discussion or we'll be here all year!!

Don

[Jay Knoll]

Lets not get into the rope vs chain discussion or we'll be here all year!!

Why not? I think that chain significantly improves an anchor's effectiveness and it certainly works better with a windlass. We anchor with all chain and a 15' snubber on Better Days -- I just wish I had a washdown pump!

[DesertAlbin736]

Interesting & informative discussion. We inherited a 10kg/22 lb Bruce (genuine "Made In Belgium" Bruce, not a generic claw clone) with 26 feet of 3/8th chain plus 1/2" nylon rode for total of 210 feet mounted on a bowsprit/roller as primary ground tackle on our A25.

DSCN3628.JPG

Our secondary anchor is an 18 lb painted steel Danforth type, with 6 feet of chain & 125 feet of rode, which we stow in the aft cabin. So far we have not had any significant incidents, but it's good to know the limitations of these types. When anchoring overnight on our lake we generally use both anchors bow and stern to hold us in place facing North, since most times the afternoon breezes are out of the South, but inevitably overnight the winds shift 180 degrees as 10 to 12 knot downslope winds sliding off a 6,000 foot mountain range to the North kick up starting late at night to early morning. Partially this is because while we could swing and reset on one anchor, this lake was enlarged with a new dam in the 1990s, submerging many mesquite and palo verde trees in the coves, the remnants of which tend to snag and wrap the anchor chains in 20 to 30 feet of water, which means only a scuba diver could recover it. Many of our friends have lost anchors in this lake. Fortunately I've only ever lost one Danforth style anchor in 19 years of sailing/boating on this lake. Losing a Rochna to a chain getting wrapped around a submerged tree stump could get real expensive.

Desert lake cove anchoring

Cove 002.jpg

We're going over to Catalina Island in a few weeks, but there one goes on moorings locked in bow and stern, due to the crowded nature of the harbors and steep, rocky shore.

Here's how crowded it gets in summer in Avalon, in this picture taken in 2012 with our old Catalina 25 sailboat "Orinoco Flow" in the center foreground.

DSCN0572 Mooring at Avalon 7-11-714 (1280x960).jpg

But if anchor replacement becomes a future issue, for example if we were to lose our anchor to a snag or rock on the lake, which is common and easy to do, then one of these more modern anchors would be our choice, either Rochna, Manson, or Mantus.

[Sunsetrider]

Timely - I replaced my main anchor today - see pic below. The old Lewmar Claw is in the barrow and the new 10kg anchor on the bow. I do need to secure it better as left on its own it self-deploys. Right now it is tied to the cleat with a string. Actually, that works well, I'll just get a better piece of string, and then maybe a bungee to prevent anchor-hop in the chop. 15 feet if 1/4 chain and 150 ft of 1/2 3-strand rode. Nor enough I know but good enough for the nonce.

The Claw is also 10 kg and I am bringing it home. I have a 5 kg claw in the hold which, together with the shovel up front, is enough for local cruising I think. When I strike out on the BIg Adventure I'll bring the 10 kg Claw on board as a 2nd anchor.

I did a walk-around the marina on an anchor judgment review. Most of the Big Boys had a CQR. The other 50% were Danforth/Fortress or Claw. Only ONE Rocna (a 20 kg on a beautiful sailboat).

Welcome comments on securing this ungainly thing! I am hoping this acquisition ($149) will help me sleep through the night.