The Search is Over

[stxray]

Well, I did it!
I snagged myself an A25.

I really want to thank DesertAlbin736 without whose help this never would have happened. He patiently entertained numerous questions and really helped me with the buying process. Thank you Steve and thank you to this forum. The information here is awesome!

Now to the boat. Some of you may have seen it, it was listed on Craigs List DC and Dcatsea posted info about it here back in January.

Well the PO and I have been talking since last December. My main concern with the boat was that the last time he tried to start it, he was unsuccessful. I was looking to have a marine diesel mechanic look at it and see if it could be started and if not, was it a major (overall/repower) issue. In the end, we were able to agree on a price that made it worth the risk to buy it as is.

Now the fun begins My first priority is to address the engine. I downloaded the steps for Starting an Old Diesel Engine from the Sound Marine website. However, I'd appreciate an advice and/or suggestions on how best to attack this issue.

You can bet I'll be search this forum for advice on the many, many items on my to-do list and posting lots of questions.

Thank you in advance and wish me luck

[kerrye]

Congratulations. I talked to that guy about that boat before I bought mine. He seemed to think it was a fuel problem but from the symptoms I couldn't see a reason for that diagnosis as opposed to alternatives. The first thing I'd do is do a compression test. If it has good compression then further effort is worth it. Without good compression it's not worth testing other systems. If it has good compression, I'd get a small alternate fuel container with clean fuel and pipe it directly to the engine to bypass any other fuel delivery problems and see if I could get it to start. I can't remember what engine it had. The Volvo Penta? I'm wondering if it has glow plugs. I don't think so. If you don't know a lot about diesel, video your compression tests and any further starting attempts and you can then link them here for other people to analyze.

[2manyboats]

Welcome to Albin community..These little boats are pretty amazing, simple to repair because of the simple design and quality materials. From these pages, and the folks that have these boats, is a wealth of information. What ever you run into for problems, there probably someone here that has had the same issue and has a solution. Especially the knowledge of where to source parts.

Good luck with your rebuild and keep us posted with the progress.

[DesertAlbin736]

Ray,

I'm humbled & flattered by your compliments. We've been emailing over the last couple weeks going back & forth. I wish I could help more with Volvo engines, but I'm still on a learning curve for diesels myself. I think Kerrye's advice is very helpful. I'm still trying to convince him to head for Pacific NW & do the San Juans & Gulf Islands, but I know he's got other plans this year. These are amazing boats. If classic plastic trailerable pocket trawlers are your thing, Albin 25's are where it's at.

We're busy getting ready for our longest cruise ever, Bellingham, WA to Desolation Sound, BC, hitting the road about a month from now. In those parts setting a bow anchor with a stern tie line to shore using floating yellow polypropylene line is often the norm in small, possibly crowded anchorages in coves with steep to shores. So just today I finished knocking together a stern tie reel that can hang on the stern rail & is loaded with 325 ft of line. Used a $24 wall mount garden hose reel from Wally World & some wood & coat hooks to adapt it to hang from the stern rail. The reel can be easily removed & stowed in the aft cabin when not needed.

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Yachts anchored in Desolation Sound stern to shore with stern tie lines

stern tie.jpg

[stxray]

Thanks guys.
Great advice: compression testing, a clean fuel source, video tape for review here.
I've spoken to a couple of marine diesel mechanic about it. Their take is it might be easier, faster to focus on getting her started. According to them, "if it starts, then compression is good". I think I can address the clean fuel source. If that doesn't work then on to plan "B". I'm hoping I'll get lucky.
I wish I could jump into it but travel for work will delay any efforts to get her started.
Stay tuned

[Northern Spy]

Welcome to The Forum!look in the Albin maintenance board on this forum for a thread titled "starting an old lehman" that will give you some good hints. I'll repeat what I said over there an oil change should be your first priority! I would hate to have it start on you only to fry a bearing from water in the oil...

[kerrye]

Thanks guys.
Great advice: compression testing, a clean fuel source, video tape for review here.
I've spoken to a couple of marine diesel mechanic about it. Their take is it might be easier, faster to focus on getting her started. According to them, "if it starts, then compression is good". I think I can address the clean fuel source. If that doesn't work then on to plan "B". I'm hoping I'll get lucky.
I wish I could jump into it but travel for work will delay any efforts to get her started.
Stay tuned

I agree that trying to start it is a kind of compression test and a diesel mechanic should probably do that but I was assuming the truth of the previous owners claim that he had spent a fair amount of time trying to start it unsuccessfully. But trying it with an alternate fuel source would exclude most fuel delivery problems and it might start. Personally, I would use an outboard motor gas tank as the alternate supply, using the squeeze bulb as the fuel pump. Just remove the fitting on the end of the fuel line and clamp the line on to a fitting as close to the injection pump as possible.

[DesertAlbin736]

Just remove the fitting on the end of the fuel line and clamp the line on to a fitting as close to the injection pump as possible.

And don't forget to bleed the fuel system up to and including the injectors. The whole issue with the engine not starting could be as simple as air in the lines. Our cruising buddies have had similar problems with the Yanmar 1GM10 in their O'Day 25 sailboat with air leaks in the suction side of the fuel lines. And perhaps letting the tank get too close to empty since they're die hard sailors & won't run the engine if there's even the slightest zephyr whiff of breeze. Actually it's the skipper who is the most averse to using the "Iron Genny", not his admiral.

Oh, by the way, yesterday I mentioned rigging a reel for 325 feet of 3 strand poly line to use as stern ties, which are common & sometimes necessary when anchoring among the islands of the Inside Passage up in British Columbia . You can buy fancy stainless steel ones for $200+, or adapt a garden hose reel and a few pieces of wood for $24 like this.

[kerrye]

What engine is in the boat, I can't recall what the PO told me? It's important because if the engine has glow plugs, the troubleshooting sequence should begin with them and not fuel.

[kerrye]

Looked thru my back e-mails and it looks like its a Volvo MD 17c. No glow plugs on that engine. How many hours on it? It has decompression levers on it so a very rudimentary compression test could be one by engaging the decompression levers, spinning the starter and then disengaging the decompression levers. If there's only a small difference in rpm's then the compression is probably low. If the engine lugs down then the compression is probably good.

[kerrye]

Here's a video of a Volvo diesel starting. The engine almost certainly has low compression given how long it takes to start.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoEXEg4dRkY

[kerrye]

Here's a healthy or perhaps warm Volvo diesel starting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbM2maJ0TYc

[WillieC]

I have an A25 with what I assume is the original MD3B VP, 36 horse, 3 cylinder. This is our first boat and we were greeeen. The PO was very helpful, even assisted in moving it from Bellingham to the South Sound. But he was not "mechanically inclined". He was very specific about the oil type and weight, only he transposed them. 40 wt., Delo 100. and boy did it crank slowly, difficult to start. What did I know? An old Volvo, so what? A little research showed me that Delo 100 is for two stroke engines and the Albin Handbook says 10W oil for our climate. John Augusteson in Seattle (our go-to guy for dealer stuff) said to use 15W40, Delo 400. THE SAME OIL IN MY DIESEL TRUCK. I know Delo, used to use it in my old VWs. So 15W40 lets the engine spin like it should, easier on the starter, wiring, batts. Oh, and it starts in about two revolutions, with 5700 hours on it! (I mean to do a compression test, but I don't want my feelings hurt that bad.)
The other trick is the cold start throttle position on this engine. The handbook is very specific about this. Pull the throttle all the way back to stop engine position, then advance to half throttle. Crank. That's it. No glow plugs no ether, no voodoo economics. Other engines of this era have a cold start lever somewhere on the engine, apparently mine is incorporated into the throttle lever. The first season on our own after we bought the boat, I had a hard time getting it started. Of course I went through the fuel system because I found two and three copper and/or aluminum washers stacked at various fittings and banjo bolts. All leaking like sieves. I thought that was normal, until it died on me one fine day with all three of my grown sons aboard. Two were posted to keep watch so we didn't run aground and they immediately proceeded to the galley where they found my bottle of rum. The good son helped me figure out how to bleed it. We found a very loose banjo fitting and the "normal" pool of diesel in the engine pan, what did I know, so after tightening it we knew it had to be bled. Thankfully we still had the Handbook aboard and sorted that out rather painlessly. WOOHOO! We are now diesel mechanics. The two drunken sons in the galley will forever be second class citizens on MY boat.
Later that first summer, or maybe it was the second summer, I noticed a lot of play in the throttle linkage. So what, old Volvo. Big deal. Only remember the prescribed cold start procedure is crucial. The PO had marked the throttle housing with a felt pen where he got the engine to start, only it was fading fast and quite variable due to the massive slop in the linkage. I still had a hell of a time finding the sweet spot. The Captain is much better than I. She knows where it is and how to hold her mouth and it fires every time. So I got to looking at the throttle slop and found a bent nail in the throttle housing used in lieu of a roll pin that actually fits the lever and the cable pulley. The 10d nail was worn down to about a 7d and fading fast. Fixed that. No more slop, and then I decided to watch the trhottle travel at the engine and see where the halfway, cold-start postion translated to the throttle level at the helm. Got it. Starts like a champ, two or three cranks every time even after sitting for a couple months in my driveway. I love this boat. Going into the water this weekend for first time this season. Lots of maintenance done and lots of stuff to shakedown in sea trials, but i am pretty confident in my winter repairs, mostly thanks to this forum.

[stxray]

WilleC:
Thanks for sharing. Good to know that being a greenie is survivable.

This isn't my first boat but, it is my first diesel. There's no way I would/could attempt this "restoration" without this board.

I too seem to have some slop in the throttle control so I'm not sure if I've found the cold start sweet spot or not. When I changed the oil I did use Delo 15/40 thanks to the posting I found here. I was able to find and download the Instruction Book and the Workshop Manual online but found them somewhat lacking when it comes to specifics. The Instruction Book seems too little while the Workshop Manual seems too much.

I need to put new batteries in her. Can you tell me what you're using and how you have them setup?

Again, thanks for sharing.

[WillieC]

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Ah, yes... I needed new batteries too after I connected the cheap car charger that came with the boat and left it for a week. The charger was permanently connected to the batteries and rattled around under the seat with the 120 volt cord hanging out for easy access. What could possibly go wrong with this setup? We keep ours on a trailer in our yard during the off season and periodically I would smell a distinctly pungent odor when I would walk past the boat. Assuming it was my neighbor's septic tank in need of a pumpout, since ours was recently done, I thought nothing more of it. I finally came to my senses when I realized it was hydrogen gas from my boiling batteries. I was lucky to not have it explode.

I could write a book about my whole process and not all of it is as interesting as I think it is. I did a lot of online research, which links I will share with you. I am also a licensed master electrician in the State of Washington, but do not take that to mean it was a piece of cake for me. There are charts for calculating loads and determining wire sizes, which do not correspond to the National Electrical Code, so start over. You must prioritize what you intend to do with the boat, assess your current electrical system condition, honestly assess your skill level and learning aptitude and check your bank balance. I know all you need is new batteries. That was my situation. Honestly, I probably could have simply replaced them and been fine for a while, but I am too curious.

First, I had to get to the batteries. They were buried under the floor boards under the seat, next to the engine. No access panel. I did not know how many batteries I had or if they were still using the original diode charging/semi-isolation system that came with the boat or what. What connections I could see were not encouraging. All my engine wiring, thankfully there is damn little if your boat is fairly pristine, had cooked ends at their terminations. Simple enough to replace a half-dozen wires I thought, then I found a two foot loop in the harness coiled up under the non-removable floor boards. Saints preserve us!

Then I found a fancy-dancy Perko Isolation 4 position switch! A real expert must have overhauled this baby! Big and Red and Official! It was set to “Both”. Installed in a totally inaccessible location, with no apparent thought for actual operation or maintenance. But it was Fancy-Dancy. Then I knew I was in for the long haul.

As for your situation, maybe a real expert already upgraded your electrical system and you just need new batteries. And all the children live in perfect peace. If so, replace them with what you already have. If they are AGM, you are way ahead of me and need to talk to Steve, Desert Albin guy. If conventional lead acid 12 volt, shop around. There is a lot of information out there about deep cycle, starting and combination batts. Go with the combination, but don't believe all their hype. You will have to buy new batteries again at some point. (Somebody may have installed AGMs with no upgrade in charger, monitoring or thought given to actual use. Caution, they require specific add-ons and do not just plug into the conventional lead acid set-up.)

Not knowing your specific situation, I will stop with a must-read-if-tedious link and a few pictures of part of my upgrade. I will try to answer any of your questions and am willing to speak directly if it seems helpful. Regards, Rick.

http://forums.sailboatowners.com/index. ... gs.137615/

ps. "cover removed"photo needs 90 degree rotation clockwise. D.... smart phones, my a.....